Discussion:
Apple Plans Three New iPhones in 2019
(too old to reply)
arlen holder
2019-01-13 14:23:35 UTC
Permalink
Apple Plans Three New iPhones This Year
<https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-plans-new-lcd-iphone-this-year-despite-xrs-stumble-11547199263>
o A double-camera LCD model to succeed the beleaguered iPhone XR
o The flagship model is expected to sport a triple rear camera
o Apple is said to include support for the latest Wi-Fi standards
o Improved TrueDepth is expected for Apple's marketing gimmick, Face ID
o Apple is said to be thinking about removing 3D Touch
o Apple is expected to switch to all OLED displays only in its 2020 lineup
arlen holder
2019-01-14 21:06:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by arlen holder
Apple Plans Three New iPhones This Year
<https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-plans-new-lcd-iphone-this-year-despite-xrs-stumble-11547199263>
o A double-camera LCD model to succeed the beleaguered iPhone XR
o The flagship model is expected to sport a triple rear camera
o Apple is said to include support for the latest Wi-Fi standards
o Improved TrueDepth is expected for Apple's marketing gimmick, Face ID
o Apple is said to be thinking about removing 3D Touch
o Apple is expected to switch to all OLED displays only in its 2020 lineup
Here is an update from sms in a post from another thread:
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/oulJsYSmDDM/eeIlR8dtFQAJ>

The XIr will apparently have two cameras. The flagship XI/XI Max will
have three cameras and incorporate 3D.

All the XI models will have 4x4 MIMO antennas and all will have
802.11ax. But apparently 5G will not arrive until the XII because the
Intel 5G chipsets are not ready yet (while 5G chipsets from Qualcomm are
available).

These changes would make the XIr would be much more compelling than the
Xr if it gained the 4x4 antenna and dual cameras, and did not go up in
price and given what has transpired, price increases are very unlikely.

Not known if the XIr will get an OLED screen. One rumor was that LCD
screens will be phased out completely, but if the only difference
between the XIr and the XI is the cameras then the XIr would hurt sales
of the XII Max.

I wouldn't say that the Xr is "lower end phone" though. Lower than the
XI/XI Max of course, but still a solid mid-range phone, not a lower end
phone.
Post by arlen holder
BTW, I am noticing carriers in Canada still sell the 6S. What is the
deal with that? leftover stock, or does Apple still actially make the 6S
for certain markets ?
There are some prepaid carriers still selling the 6s and 6s Plus in the
U.S., though they are mostly sold out. I bought one recently from
Cricket and unlocked it for Verizon. Then my brother-in-law wanted one
but could not find anyone still selling them in the U.S.. I think that
they are still manufacturing them in India as well
<https://9to5mac.com/2018/06/26/iphone-6s-production-india/>. It's a
good strategy to expand the iPhone user base in countries where people
can't afford the newer iPhone models, while not trying to sell the new
models at different prices in different countries.
arlen holder
2019-01-18 08:00:58 UTC
Permalink
Another update, today, based in China, from the 9to5Mac rumor mill...
o iPhone 11 rumors: 4000 mAh battery, etc.
<https://9to5mac.com/2019/01/17/iphone-11-display-battery-faster-rumors/>

o The report calls for a larger, 4,000mAh battery on the Max model
o With much faster 15W wireless charging
o The rumor specifies between 90-120Hz rather than a surefire 120Hz
o The rumor corroborates reports of a triple camera setup on the back
o This could mean a wide angle, super-wide angle, & a 3X telephoto lens

"Previous iPhone 11 rumors have called for a smaller notch,
an improved 10MP selfie camera, and a widely improved 14MP triple
camera rear setup. As for whether USB-C will finally make its way to
iPhone or Lightning will last another year remains to be seen"
sms
2019-01-19 17:33:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by arlen holder
Another update, today, based in China, from the 9to5Mac rumor mill...
o iPhone 11 rumors: 4000 mAh battery, etc.
<https://9to5mac.com/2019/01/17/iphone-11-display-battery-faster-rumors/>
o The report calls for a larger, 4,000mAh battery on the Max model
o With much faster 15W wireless charging
o The rumor specifies between 90-120Hz rather than a surefire 120Hz
o The rumor corroborates reports of a triple camera setup on the back
o This could mean a wide angle, super-wide angle, & a 3X telephoto lens
"Previous iPhone 11 rumors have called for a smaller notch,
an improved 10MP selfie camera, and a widely improved 14MP triple
camera rear setup. As for whether USB-C will finally make its way to
iPhone or Lightning will last another year remains to be seen"
I think that they should do an iPhone that competes with the Samsung
Galaxy Note 9.

Sounds like they are making a good start with a 4000mAH battery, the
return of the fingerprint biometric, and USB-C.

A model with Apple Pencil support would be awesome.

USB-C enables them to do some version of OTG if they chose to do so.

Obviously we're not going to see a return of the headphone jack, and we
won't see MicroSD card support.

A lot of the other advantages of the Note 9 over the Xs Max are things
that could be done in the operating system. I noted thirteen advantages
of the Note 9 over the Xs Max that could be easily addressed in iOS with
no hardware changes at all.

Increasing market share is dependent on attracting Android users that
don't want to give up many of the Android-only features.
nospam
2019-01-19 18:22:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by sms
I think that they should do an iPhone that competes with the Samsung
Galaxy Note 9.
trolling alert.

apple already did, and that was *last* *year*, with the iphone x.

<https://bgr.com/2018/08/10/galaxy-note-9-vs-iphone-x-comparison-benchma
rks-oops/>
Long story short, Apple¹s year-old iPhone X outperforms the brand new
Galaxy Note 9 in just about every test that matters.

*this* year's xr, xs and xs max are faster than the now discontinued
iphone x.

samsung has nothing that comes anywhere close to face id. their version
of face unlock is trivially spoofed, making it completely worthless.
according to samsung, they won't have anything to match it for a couple
of years.
Post by sms
Sounds like they are making a good start with a 4000mAH battery, the
return of the fingerprint biometric, and USB-C.
clearly trolling.

battery mah doesn't matter. hours of use does, which depends on how
power efficient the device is, which varies. android devices in general
have more overhead than ios devices, therefore, they need a larger
battery for similar run times.

touch id is not coming back and it's not clear if iphones will switch
to usb-c, nor is that necessarily a good idea.
Post by sms
A model with Apple Pencil support would be awesome.
maybe for some people, but not everyone wants a pencil on a smaller
device.

pencil support on an ipad pro makes a lot of sense. not so much on a
phone.
Post by sms
USB-C enables them to do some version of OTG if they chose to do so.
that's already supported via lightning and was even supported with the
dock connector.

yet another thing you get wrong.
Post by sms
Obviously we're not going to see a return of the headphone jack, and we
won't see MicroSD card support.
obviously, nor is there any need for it.

many android devices don't have them either.
Post by sms
A lot of the other advantages of the Note 9 over the Xs Max are things
that could be done in the operating system. I noted thirteen advantages
of the Note 9 over the Xs Max that could be easily addressed in iOS with
no hardware changes at all.
yet you deliberately ignore the advantages an iphone has over a note 9
or other android devices.

no device can do everything in every situation.
Post by sms
Increasing market share is dependent on attracting Android users that
don't want to give up many of the Android-only features.
apple doesn't chase market share, and the number of people switching
from android continues to increase, largely due to the many ios-only
features.

again, no device does everything.
arlen holder
2019-01-19 19:16:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Long story short, Apple¹s year-old iPhone X outperforms the brand new
Galaxy Note 9 in just about every test that matters.
*You spout your "religious" beliefs, nospam, but where are your facts?*

I used to think nospam said these "religious" beliefs out of ignorance.
(But now I realize that nospam owns classic left-side Dunning-Kruger bias.)
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/MwtyT7BdxF4>

Hence, discussions with you, nospam, moving forward, will be shorter.

Why will I stop presenting you, nospam, with the cold-hard actual facts?

Because no amount of actual fact will ever get through to you, nospam.
(You believe in a religious system that Apple MARKETING has fed you.)

Your entire belief system is underlain by MARKETING (not by facts).
(Admittedly, the best MARKETING on the planet - but still MARKETING.)

No amount of facts about lemon-juice chemistry will sway you.
(You literally believe that the "lemon-juice" trick _actually_ works!)

The Galaxy Note 9 _creams_ the iPhone XS Max on all but 1 hardware spec!
(And even a 5year old Android device creams all iPhones on software.)

Those are facts, nospam.
(Cold hard obvious proven reliable facts, i.e., not MARKETING - but fact.)

The fact that you, nospam, can't comprehend facts, doesn't change the fact.
(No amount of MARKETING will make your lemon-juice trick hide that fact.)
Jolly Roger
2019-01-19 20:02:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by arlen holder
The Galaxy Note 9 _creams_ the iPhone XS Max on all but 1 hardware spec!
(And even a 5year old Android device creams all iPhones on software.)
Those are facts, nospam.
Nope, those are *lies*. You routinely claim lies are facts, desperately
hoping you'll fool anyone but yourself. NO SALE.

<https://www.tomsguide.com/us/iphone-xs-max-vs-galaxy-note-9,review-5741.html>

"Performance

This one is pretty easy to call, especially now that we've run the
iPhone XS Max through our battery of benchmarks and real-life speed
tests. The A11 Bionic processor in the iPhone X was already the fastest
chip in a phone, and the 7-nanometer A12 Bionic has widened Apple’s lead
over Snapdragon 845.

On the Geekbench 4 general performance test, the iPhone XS Max scored
11,515 — a much better result than the Note 9's 8,876 score. Apple's
phone continues to outpace the Note 9 in our real-world test where we
transcode a 2-minute 4K video to 1080p.

The XS Max also topped the Note 9 when it came to opening apps quickly —
anywhere from around 3 seconds faster on Pokémon Go to nearly 15 seconds
faster on Fortnite.

About the only test where the Note 9 turned in a better score than the
iPhone XS Max was on the 3DMark Slingshot Extreme graphics benchmark.
Here, the Note 9 scored 4,639 to the iPhone XS Max's 4,339.

But the iPhone XS surged past the Note 9 on another graphics test called
GFXBench, which closely resembles real-world gameplay. The iPhone XS
notched 1,604.7 frames on the Aztec Ruins portion of the test, and
1,744.44 frames in the Car Chase test. The Note 9 fared worse at 851.7
and 1,103 frames, respectively.

The bottom line? With the A12 processor, the XS Max is the fastest phone
currently available.

Winner: iPhone XS Max"

<https://img.purch.com/tg-iphonexs-max-geekbench-generic-jpg/w/755/aHR0cDovL21lZGlhLmJlc3RvZm1pY3JvLmNvbS9HL0cvODAwMjI0L29yaWdpbmFsL1RHX2lQaG9uZVhzX01heF9HZWVrYmVuY2hfZ2VuZXJpYy5qcGc=>

"Overall Winner: iPhone XS Max

The iPhone XS Max is now the best big-screen phone you can buy, but it
didn’t beat the Galaxy Note 9 by much in this face-off. They are both
Editors' Choice winning handsets for a reason.

iPhone XS Max Galaxy Note 9
Design (10) 9 8
Display (15) 15 14
Performance (20) 20 17
Cameras (20) 18 16
Special Features (5) 3 5
Security (5) 5 4
Battery Life (15) 12 14
Price/Value (10) 6 8
Overall 88 86

Apple’s flagship won the design and performance rounds, and its camera
fared better in side-by-side photos comparisons. And while the Note 9
gives you more biometric security options, Face ID is simple and works
best. The iPhone XS’ display edges out the Note 9’s panel slightly for
higher brightness you can get on command.

The Galaxy Note 9 pulls ahead in some important categories, though. It
offers longer battery life based on our testing and faster charging out
of the box, and it gives you double the storage and microSD expansion
for less money. And if you really care about productivity, the S Pen can
really come in handy.

Overall, both the iPhone XS Max and Note 9 are superior phablets, but
Apple’s handset barely squeaks out the victory.

Credit: Tom's Guide"

Shove those facts up your stinky ass, old fart.
Post by arlen holder
you, nospam, can't comprehend facts
Projection from a tired, old, useless troll..
--
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JR
Jolly Roger
2019-01-19 19:46:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by sms
I think that they should do an iPhone that competes with the Samsung
Galaxy Note 9.
trolling alert.
apple already did, and that was *last* *year*, with the iphone x.
<https://bgr.com/2018/08/10/galaxy-note-9-vs-iphone-x-comparison-benchma
rks-oops/>
Long story short, Apple¹s year-old iPhone X outperforms the brand new
Galaxy Note 9 in just about every test that matters.
*this* year's xr, xs and xs max are faster than the now discontinued
iphone x.
Cue the "raw performance doesn't matter when Apple beats the compeition"
excuses, in 3... 2... 1...
Post by nospam
samsung has nothing that comes anywhere close to face id. their version
of face unlock is trivially spoofed, making it completely worthless.
Not only that, but Android captures images of your face and fingerprint
that can easily be lifted from a device to violate your privacy or
worse.
Post by nospam
according to samsung, they won't have anything to match it for a couple
of years.
And even then it likely won't have the security and privacy protections
available on iOS devices.
Post by nospam
Post by sms
Sounds like they are making a good start with a 4000mAH battery, the
return of the fingerprint biometric, and USB-C.
clearly trolling.
battery mah doesn't matter. hours of use does, which depends on how
power efficient the device is, which varies. android devices in general
have more overhead than ios devices, therefore, they need a larger
battery for similar run times.
That's what happens when you shoehorn a Java VM with its mobile-hostile
CPU- and RAM-munching garbage collection and APIs not designed from the
ground up for mobile on top of a crappy Linux operating system. iOS
blows Android out of the water when it comes to efficiency.
--
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I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
nospam
2019-01-19 19:57:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by nospam
samsung has nothing that comes anywhere close to face id. their version
of face unlock is trivially spoofed, making it completely worthless.
Not only that, but Android captures images of your face and fingerprint
that can easily be lifted from a device to violate your privacy or
worse.
they don't all do that, however, some did.

<https://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/08/10/htc_caught_storing_fingerprint
s_as_worldreadable_cleartext/>
The team found a forehead-slapping flaw in HTC One Max in which
fingerprints are stored as an image file (dbgraw.bmp) in a open
"world readable" folder.
...
"To make the situation even worse, each time the fingerprint sensor
is used for auth operation, the auth framework will refresh that
fingerprint bitmap to reflect the latest wiped finger," the team says.

it's amazing anyone thought that was a good idea.

it's extremely likely that using another htc one max to generate a
fingerprint file for your finger, then copy that file to the proper
folder on the the target phone, will suffice to have the target phone
validate with your finger.
arlen holder
2019-01-20 05:23:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
they don't all do that, however, some did.
You see, nospam, _this_ is why you're _different_ than most Apologists.

Jolly Roger is incapable of comprehending anything slightly complex.

That's why Jolly Roger is the *perfect sponge* to MARKETING messaging.
(e.g., Jolly Roger actually _believes_ iOS is "more private" than Android.)

Yet you ... you nospam ... while you're very (very!) often wrong,
you appear to actually comprehend _complexities_ in facts.

That ability of yours, nospam, to comprehend _complexities_ is different.

It alone differentiates you, nospam, from the simpletons
(such as Jolly Roger, Alan Baker, Lewis, Tim Streater, BK, et al.)

You, nospam, can actually comprehend some _complexities_ in facts.
What's amazing is that even so, you're _still_ almost always wrong.
(However, in this case, you're probably right.)

Nospam: You've always been an enigma to me, as I always thought:
o Either you're incredibly stupid (since you're wrong almost all the time),
o Or, you're just duplicitous (since you have a mantra to promulgate).

Since you're _not_ always incredibly stupid, then that leaves few
options for why you're almost always wrong.

It's not hard to understand people like Jolly Roger.
They are simply incredibly stupid.
They spout exactly the MARKETING message Apple teaches them.
Apple teaches it to them in small non-complex simple sentences.
At about the first or second grade level (give or take) which fits them.

Yet you. You nospam. You're actually _different_ than people like JR are.

Maybe you can help me understand you better:
Q: Why is it that you _can_ comprehend complexities in facts, and yet,
your conclusions based on those very same facts, are easily proven
wrong most of the time (I mean, it's child's play to prove you wrong).

Generally it takes fewer than ten seconds to prove you wrong, nospam.
And yet, you _do_ comprehend some of the slight complexities in facts.

That makes you DIFFERENT than the likes of the other idiot Apologists.
Very different.

You're much like a diplomat who never tells the truth (ever).
A diplomat who appears stupid but perhaps is not as stupid as he appears.
arlen holder
2019-01-20 04:54:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
Cue the "raw performance doesn't matter when Apple beats the compeition"
excuses, in 3... 2... 1...
Hi Jolly Roger,
Ah, but you forgot to think about *facts*, Jolly Roger.

*The key weakness of all you Apologists, is you can't comprehend facts.*

Yes. Those things.
Facts.

Those things that you're incapable of comprehending, Jolly Roger.
The reason you can't comprehend facts, JR, is that you _think_ you can.

Hence...
I realize facts aren't your shtick but facts exist in the real world.



For example...
*Have you already _forgotten_ iPhone X CPUs are drastically throttled?*

That iPhone X CPU-throttling speed essentially makes all benchmarks moot.
Facts. Jolly Roger. Facts.

What's the true benchmark when you half the iPhone X CPU speed?
Dunno. Maybe it drops a lot - maybe a little (but probably a _lot_).

Facts.
The only benchmark that matters is the one run in the "real world".

Facts.
In the real world, as of Nov 2018, iPhone, the iPhone X CPU is throttled.
o Every indication is that the new line of astronomically-priced Apple iPhones are just as flawed as the iPhone 6 to 7 to 8 to X
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/1RiqBADD-vE>
--
I realize facts aren't your shtick but facts exist in the real world.
arlen holder
2019-01-20 05:10:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
And even then it likely won't have the security and privacy protections
available on iOS devices.
Hi Jolly Roger,

FACT: *Both iOS & Android platforms are "about the same" on privacy.*
That your brain thinks otherwise - is a MARKETING-induced phenomenon.

*The belief system of the Apologists is a MARKETING-induced religion.*
Since you're 100% influenced by Apple Marketing, your brain lacks facts.

Hence, I will only bother to tell you the *facts*, Jolly Roger, on
o Privacy, and, on
o Security.

I do realize that you're incapable of comprehending facts.
No amount of lemon-juice chemistry explanation will change that.

But, for the sake of the others who read this, I merely state facts.
o In many ways, the privacy on Android is far better than that of iOS.
o In many ways, the privacy on iOS is (by default) better than on Android.
o In other ways, the privacy is exactly the same (e.g., carrier leaks).

Privacy is a complex issue - where all you seem to comprehend -
Jolly Roger - is what Apple Marketing told you to comprehend - where
Apple MARKETING puts it into little short sentences that your brain
sucks up like a sponge Jolly Roger - because of their simple message.

APPLE MARKETING MESSAGE:
o iOS is more private than Android

ACTUAL FACTS:
o The privacy on both iOS & Android is "about the same"

Facts are stated here, Jolly Roger, not that you can comprehend them:
o What is the factual truth about PRIVACY differences or similarities between the Android & iOS mobile phone ecosystems?
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/MiZixhidmOs>

HINT: Anyone who thinks "security" will be any different - had better use facts.
DOUBLEHINT: Facts are the supreme weakness of all Apple Apologists.

The belief system of the Apologists is a MARKETING induced religion.

PS: I know you hate facts, Jolly Roger, which is why you hate me.
I apologize that you're always wrong, which is so easily proven with facts.
joe
2019-01-19 18:31:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by sms
Post by arlen holder
Another update, today, based in China, from the 9to5Mac rumor mill...
o iPhone 11 rumors: 4000 mAh battery, etc.
<https://9to5mac.com/2019/01/17/iphone-11-display-battery-faster-rumors/>
o The report calls for a larger, 4,000mAh battery on the Max model
o With much faster 15W wireless charging
o The rumor specifies between 90-120Hz rather than a surefire 120Hz
o The rumor corroborates reports of a triple camera setup on the back
o This could mean a wide angle, super-wide angle, & a 3X telephoto lens
    "Previous iPhone 11 rumors have called for a smaller notch,
      an improved 10MP selfie camera, and a widely improved 14MP triple
      camera rear setup. As for whether USB-C will finally make its
way to
       iPhone or Lightning will last another year remains to be seen"
I think that they should do an iPhone that competes with the Samsung
Galaxy Note 9.
Sounds like they are making a good start with a 4000mAH battery, the
return of the fingerprint biometric, and USB-C.
A model with Apple Pencil support would be awesome.
USB-C enables them to do some version of OTG if they chose to do so.
Obviously we're not going to see a return of the headphone jack, and we
won't see MicroSD card support.
A lot of the other advantages of the Note 9 over the Xs Max are things
that could be done in the operating system. I noted thirteen advantages
of the Note 9 over the Xs Max that could be easily addressed in iOS with
no hardware changes at all.
Increasing market share is dependent on attracting Android users that
don't want to give up many of the Android-only features.
Click on the link and look for the following:
"This site is mirroring this Twitter user’s iPhone 11 wish list, rather
than providing any new information. The items mentioned should be
disregarded."
Jolly Roger
2019-01-19 20:04:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by joe
"This site is mirroring this Twitter user’s iPhone 11 wish list, rather
than providing any new information. The items mentioned should be
disregarded."
"Ignore that part."
--
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I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
arlen holder
2019-01-19 19:04:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by sms
I think that they should do an iPhone that competes with the Samsung
Galaxy Note 9.
Hi sms,

Doesn't that iPhone _already_ exist?

While I look for price-to-performance when I buy a phone,
I'm always interested in factual comparisons based on hardware
(given I know the software angle rather well - where it's no contest).

I only speak fact.
Well cited, easily proven, well-validated & reliable fact.

This is a Tom's Guide hardware comparison:
o iPhone XS Max vs Galaxy Note 9
<https://www.tomsguide.com/us/iphone-xs-max-vs-galaxy-note-9,review-5741.html>
"Both phones boast serious power, highly advanced cameras
and gorgeous and ginormous OLED screens. But these flagships
are quite different in several ways, especially their storage
options, processors and special features."

These are in the order provided by Tom's Guide exactly:
o Price: Samsung is $1,250; Apple is 16% more expensive at $1,450 (both 512GB)
o Processor: Apple uses A12 Bionic while Samsung uses Snapdragon 845
o Screen size: Apple is 6.5-inch OLED with Samsung being 6.4 inches
o Screen resolution: Samsung wins at Super AMOLED 2960x1440 vs Apple OLED 2688x1242
o Storage: Both are 512GB at the top end
o microSD: *Samsung creams Apple on external storage 512GB to none!*
o Biometric: Samsung wins on Iris scan & fingerprint & faceid vs Apple faceid
o Rear Camera: Both are the same specs on both megapixels & the critical f-stop
o Front Camera: Samsung wins with 8MP at f1.7 vs Apple 7 MP at a *lousy f2.2*
o Battery Size: Samsung wins big at 4,000mAh vs Apple's 25% lower 3,179mAh
o Battery Life: Samsung wins at 11.26 vs Apple's 10:38 (hours:min)
o Water resistance: Both are the same
o Colors: Let's not even discuss this silly childish marketing gimmick
o Size: Samsung is larger at 6.3x3x0.34 inches vs Apple's 6.2x3.05x0.3 inches
o Weight: Samsung is lighter at 7.1 ounces vs Apple's 7.3 ounces

That summarizes to:
o *Samsung wins on all but one item*, namely:
(Price, resolution, expansion, biometric, frontcam, battery, life, size, weight)
o *Apple wins on only one item*, namely:
(screen size)

NOTE: Tom's Guide charts didn't cover hw things like headphone jacks,
so I didn't include that obvious lack of Apple basic functionality above.

Nor did the chart cover the lack of Apple hardware such as the S-pen.

Here's an Android Authority hardware comparison:
o Samsung Galaxy Note 9 vs iPhone XS Max
<https://www.androidauthority.com/samsung-galaxy-note-9-vs-iphone-xs-max-909222/>

"The biggest problem I have with the large display on the XS Max is you
don't get to see more content like on the Note 9. Instead, you see the same
amount of content as you would on the regular XS, just bigger"

"the XS Max lacks a headphone jack, expandable storage,
and a fingerprint sensor. "

It doesn't seem like these two phones are even close in terms of
hardware functionality specs (we already know Apple can't even
compete on software so we ignore iOS software deficiencies).
Post by sms
Sounds like they are making a good start with a 4000mAH battery, the
return of the fingerprint biometric, and USB-C.
According to the Android Authority article above:
"Apple has never been known for huge batteries
and that is still the case" with the XS Max.

"the XS Max lacks a headphone jack, expandable storage,
and a fingerprint sensor"

"The downside to not having a fingerprint sensor is not being
able to unlock your phone without picking it up or before it
comes out of your pocket"
Post by sms
A model with Apple Pencil support would be awesome.
The articles I just read in support of this thread agree.
From the Android Authority article...
"The most significant piece of hardware differentiating
the Note 9 from the XS Max is the S-Pen"
Post by sms
USB-C enables them to do some version of OTG if they chose to do so.
If Apple chooses to do so.

I don't have a crystal ball, but I know existing facts, which are that
it's trivial if you're intelligent to turn any iOS device into (essentially)
a USB stick - but - I also know that few iOS users know how.

It requires Linux if you want to do it the easiest way, for free, for
example.

Yet again, everything is more expensive & harder with iOS.

It's yet another reason why Apple products historically have
an atrocious overall cost of ownership, all things considered.
Post by sms
Obviously we're not going to see a return of the headphone jack,
and we won't see MicroSD card support.
Yup. It's really difficult, actually, to compare Apple versus Android
with a straight face in terms of hardware because what Apple lacks
is *huge* compared to anything that it has (which isn't much).

For example, the _only_ hardware feature that Tom's Guide can
chart that is better on the Apple phone is the screen size.

EVERYTHING else, in terms of hw specs, on Apple, is worse.
*What's entirely missing on Apple, in terms of hw, is astounding.*

HINT: Apple devices are primitive compared to Android, 1 to 1.
Post by sms
A lot of the other advantages of the Note 9 over the Xs Max are things
that could be done in the operating system. I noted thirteen advantages
of the Note 9 over the Xs Max that could be easily addressed in iOS with
no hardware changes at all.
I haven't seen those 13 things ... where I apologize while starting that bluntly.

I'd be surprised if Apple has _anything_ over Android in terms of
software app functionality though (other than a single DNS API call).

It's well known to be a fact that, while there is plenty of app functionality
on Android that is not on iOS, there's zero app functionality on iOS
that isn't on Android.

It's never because of the hardware though.
Hence I agree that Apple _could_ make iOS less primitive.

But Apple has to see a business reason for making iOS less primitive.
HINT: Their customer (mostly) doesn't even realize how primitive iOS is.
Post by sms
Increasing market share is dependent on attracting Android users that
don't want to give up many of the Android-only features.
Hi sms,
This is a GREAT observation that "increasing market share" means
converting Android users to iOS.

Bearing in mind Apple doesn't sell functionality - they sell MARKETING -
what they _can_ do, I suspect, is sway the weaker Android minds with
stellar MARKETING tactics.

Things like "RED" colors, for example, may entice the gay community.
Things like "FLASHY ADS" for example, may entice the style conscious.
Things like harping on privacy & security may entice the ill educated.
etc.

NOTE: We proved, beyond any shadow of factual doubt, that the
privacy between iOS & Android is not what most iOS users "think" it is.
o What is the factual truth about PRIVACY differences or similarities between the Android & iOS mobile phone ecosystems?
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.mobile.ipad/PVqw0wDVewc>

We haven't covered "security", but the answer will almost certainly
be almost the same, since the only people who ever think that
iOS is better on either privacy or security are those who clearly
exhibit the classic -left-side Dunning-Kruger cognitive bias:
o Dunning-Kruger effect of the Apple Apologists
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.mobile.ipad/CF2mh5NxBfw>

Given those facts, and given that I don't own a crystal ball,
I agree with you that MARKETING can sway a lot of the
Android users off of Android onto iOS.

But ... the hardware & price of these two phones is clear:
o The 16% more expensive iPhone wins on only 1 of all hardware specs
o The less expensive Samsung phone wins on all but one hardware spec

Let's not even discuss software, where iOS is downright primitive
compared to Android (and falling farther and further behind).

I only speak fact.
sms
2019-01-20 10:25:48 UTC
Permalink
On 1/19/2019 11:04 AM, arlen holder wrote:

<snip>
Post by arlen holder
o Price: Samsung is $1,250; Apple is 16% more expensive at $1,450 (both 512GB)
The 256 GB Xs Max would cost me $1061 using friends and family. The
128GB Note 9 cost me $750 (on sale for $200 off). Of course to get to
256GB would require a 128GB Micro SD card which is about $30. That's a
36% difference.
Post by arlen holder
o Screen size: Apple is 6.5-inch OLED with Samsung being 6.4 inches
The display area the Note 9 is 16.01 square inches versus 15.62 square
inches for the Xs Max (because of the notch).
Post by arlen holder
o microSD: *Samsung creams Apple on external storage 512GB to none!*
Very useful feature and there are other advantages of removable storage
besides just increasing the total storage capacity. The argument "you
don't need removable storage because the internal storage capacity is so
high," ignores reality.
Post by arlen holder
o Biometric: Samsung wins on Iris scan & fingerprint & faceid vs Apple faceid
The XI is rumored to bring back a biometric fingerprint scanner under
the screen. Some other "all-screen" phones already have a Synaptics
under-screen fingerprint scanner. All the experts agree that
fingerprints are much more secure than face recognition. I.e.
<https://www.bayometric.com/fingerprint-vs-facial-recognition/>.

Apple does win on one very significant item, at least in the U.S.. The
Note 9 for the U.S. market has one physical SIM slot and no e-SIM. The
iPhone Xs and Xr have one physical SIM slot and one e-SIM (except in
China where the Xr and Xs Max have two physical SIM slots). The
international Note 9 has two physical SIM slots but can't be used on
Verizon or Sprint because it lacks CDMA.
Post by arlen holder
NOTE: Tom's Guide charts didn't cover hw things like headphone jacks,
so I didn't include that obvious lack of Apple basic functionality above.
Besides the significant hardware differences, there are significant
differences in the operating systems and ecosystems.

Of course not every hardware or OS feature matters to every user but
I've never liked the creeping decontenting of consumer products based on
the fact that only a small percentage of people would not buy the
product without a certain feature so it's okay to leave it off to reduce
manufacturing cost and warranty costs. I brought my new laptop into work
and the IT person wanted to hook it into the wired network to do some
software installation because it's faster than the Wi-Fi network; that's
when I realized that there was no wired Ethernet on the new
laptop--dongle time (and I had a heck of a time getting the device to
work, Windows kept insisting that the Lenovo Ethernet dongle was a
CD-ROM drive!
nospam
2019-01-20 10:42:38 UTC
Permalink
In article <q21ibe$rsi$***@dont-email.me>, sms
<***@geemail.com> wrote:

trolling alert.
Post by sms
The 256 GB Xs Max would cost me $1061 using friends and family. The
128GB Note 9 cost me $750 (on sale for $200 off).
comparing sale prices with full retail prices is bogus.
Post by sms
Post by arlen holder
o microSD: *Samsung creams Apple on external storage 512GB to none!*
Very useful feature and there are other advantages of removable storage
besides just increasing the total storage capacity. The argument "you
don't need removable storage because the internal storage capacity is so
high," ignores reality.
the reality is that many android phones do not have microsd cards due
to the problems it causes and that it's slower than built in memory. at
best, users insert one card and leave it there, so might as well have
built in memory.
Post by sms
The XI is rumored to bring back a biometric fingerprint scanner under
the screen.
no it most definitely is not.
Post by sms
Some other "all-screen" phones already have a Synaptics
under-screen fingerprint scanner.
a couple do, except that it's very slow and doesn't work that well.
Post by sms
All the experts agree that
fingerprints are much more secure than face recognition.
no, they very definitely don't all agree to that. in fact, none do.

apple's face id is widely recognized to be *substantially* more secure
than fingerprints.

fingerprints are only better when the face recognition system is not
very good, such as what's found on android devices, where a photo can
spoof it.
Post by sms
I.e.
<https://www.bayometric.com/fingerprint-vs-facial-recognition/>.
that company makes fingerprint sensors, therefore hardly an objective
source, and their comparison is laughable.

not even a good attempt at trolling.
Post by sms
Apple does win on one very significant item, at least in the U.S.. The
Note 9 for the U.S. market has one physical SIM slot and no e-SIM. The
iPhone Xs and Xr have one physical SIM slot and one e-SIM (except in
China where the Xr and Xs Max have two physical SIM slots). The
international Note 9 has two physical SIM slots but can't be used on
Verizon or Sprint because it lacks CDMA.
the iphone wins with much more than just one item.
Post by sms
Of course not every hardware or OS feature matters to every user but
I've never liked the creeping decontenting of consumer products based on
the fact that only a small percentage of people would not buy the
product without a certain feature so it's okay to leave it off to reduce
manufacturing cost and warranty costs. I brought my new laptop into work
and the IT person wanted to hook it into the wired network to do some
software installation because it's faster than the Wi-Fi network;
then you have a shitty wifi network.

802.11ac is comparable to gigabit wired ethernet. it's actually faster,
but will be limited to the gigabit uplink of the access point.
Post by sms
that's
when I realized that there was no wired Ethernet on the new
laptop--dongle time (and I had a heck of a time getting the device to
work, Windows kept insisting that the Lenovo Ethernet dongle was a
CD-ROM drive!
user error.
arlen holder
2019-01-21 22:53:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
comparing sale prices with full retail prices is bogus.
The 256 GB Xs Max would cost me $1061 using friends and family. The
128GB Note 9 cost me $750 (on sale for $200 off). Of course to get to
256GB would require a 128GB Micro SD card which is about $30. That's a
36% difference.
I appreciate your actual numbers because, despite the silly childish games
nospam _loves_ to play, the only true price is the price you paid, out the
door.

The true price includes:
o The price you paid (the MSRPP is meaningless, just as with cars)
o The tax (which, in California, is sometimes on the full MSRPP)
o The protection (e.g., the case, the warranty,
o The maintenance (this, I add, for yearly batteries on recent iPhones)

Note the MSRPP (aka "full retail price") is a bogus number that is only
paid by the fools (e.g., full retail price is a tax on stupidity).
Post by nospam
Post by arlen holder
o Screen size: Apple is 6.5-inch OLED with Samsung being 6.4 inches
The display area the Note 9 is 16.01 square inches versus 15.62 square
inches for the Xs Max (because of the notch).
Hi sms,
Given the area is "about the same" at
o Galaxy: 16.01 sq. in.
o iPhone: 15.62 sq. in.

Can you explain why the AndroidAuthority article said, and I quote:
" The biggest problem I have with the large display on the XS Max
is you don't get to see more content like on the Note 9. Instead,
you see the same amount of content as you would on the
regular XS, just bigger"

Was this real-world fact due to the markedly lower resolution
of the XS Max when compared to the resolution of the Note 9?
Post by nospam
Post by arlen holder
o microSD: *Samsung creams Apple on external storage 512GB to none!*
Very useful feature and there are other advantages of removable storage
besides just increasing the total storage capacity. The argument "you
don't need removable storage because the internal storage capacity is so
high," ignores reality.
Hi sms,

The fact that the iPhones are all atavistic compared to Android phones with
expandable storage is a critical reason why it's so difficult to do
hardware comparisions between decent Android phones and even the best of
the best of the best of the iPhones.

The huge *lack* of *basic* features clearly means iPhones are *primitive*.
It's hard to compare when they lack basic functionality, such as
o External storage (admittedly, some Android phones lack this too)
o S-Pen (in this case, it's something the iPhone completely lacks)
o Headphone jack (in this case, it's something the iPhone completely lacks)
o FM radio (it's typical to have in most but not all Android devices)
o Removable battery (admittedly, many Android phones lack this too)
o Batteries that last more than a year or so (XS Max may be an exception)
etc.

The fact that the new iPhones lack _all_ of those basic hardware features
means that the iPhone is, literally, primitive in those respects - which
makes it really hard to have a one-to-one comparison.

Lacking basic features is like a one-legged sprinter:
o If you ignore the fact that he's entirely missing a leg (as nospam does),
o Then, sure, he's going to (theoretically) sprint as fast as anyone else

There is generally no comparison on any of these things:
o Android price to performance generally _creams_ that of iOS
o Android app functionality clearly _creams_ that of iOS
o iOS "privacy" (& likely security) is "about the same" as Android
And yet...
o Apple MARKETING clearly _creams_ that of Android

The fact that Apple MARKTING creams that of Android marketing means
o Apple owners _think_ they have security & privacy
o Apple owners _think_ they have performance
o Apple owners _think_ they have functionality
And yet...
o It takes less than 10 seconds to factually prove that they don't.

*Now that's MARKETING!*
Post by nospam
Post by arlen holder
o Biometric: Samsung wins on Iris scan & fingerprint & faceid vs Apple faceid
The XI is rumored to bring back a biometric fingerprint scanner under
the screen. Some other "all-screen" phones already have a Synaptics
under-screen fingerprint scanner. All the experts agree that
fingerprints are much more secure than face recognition. I.e.
<https://www.bayometric.com/fingerprint-vs-facial-recognition/>.
Hi sms,
I will bow out on this "biometric" stuff simply because I think of it as a
gimmick (just as I haven't yet found a use for that stylus - but I need to
try harder, I guess).

For example, on my $130 LG Stylo 3 Plus, I have a fingerprint sensor, but I
don't even have a PIN code set, so, clearly I don't bother with the
fingerprint sensor either.

I think a phone is inherently not ever going to be a "secure" or "private"
device, whether it's an iPhone or an Android phone.

Those who "think" it's secure certainly think otherwise; but adults usually
can prove them wrong (e.g., in the privacy situation) in 10 seconds:
o What is the factual truth about PRIVACY differences or similarities between the Android & iOS mobile phone ecosystems?
o <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.mobile.android/FCKRA_3i9CY>

I think most of this gimmickry is simple good MARKETING.
Post by nospam
Apple does win on one very significant item, at least in the U.S.. The
Note 9 for the U.S. market has one physical SIM slot and no e-SIM. The
iPhone Xs and Xr have one physical SIM slot and one e-SIM (except in
China where the Xr and Xs Max have two physical SIM slots). The
international Note 9 has two physical SIM slots but can't be used on
Verizon or Sprint because it lacks CDMA.
This is a _great_ point that the Note 9 lacks a second SIM slot.
And that it lacks e-SIM capability!

It may be the only case where Apple hw is better than Android.
Post by nospam
Post by arlen holder
NOTE: Tom's Guide charts didn't cover hw things like headphone jacks,
so I didn't include that obvious lack of Apple basic functionality above.
Besides the significant hardware differences, there are significant
differences in the operating systems and ecosystems.
Hehhehheh.. preaching to the choir.
o A 5-year-old Android phone has more app functionality than any iPhone
It takes only 10 seconds to prove that to be a fact.

People don't buy iPhones for price-to-performance, that is clear.
They buy iPhones for a complex set of reasons I still don't comprehend.

Mostly, they buy a highly MARKETED device.
o But they have to have a "brain" that falls prey to MARKETING message

For example,
o They must _feel_ safe given the diarrhea that is iOS releases
o They must care about silly gimmicks, such as a RED color (for AIDS)
o They must fall prey to scare tactics (such as the virus scares)
etc.

In essence, the weaker the mind, the more it gravitates to PROPAGANDA.
Post by nospam
Of course not every hardware or OS feature matters to every user
Hi sms,
That statement is critical!

As a well-known example, I won't buy a phone for me that doesn't have a
removable battery & an SD card slot anymore, having suffered through the
Nexus and Moto-G variants that didn't have those features.

But many people WILL gladly purchase such phones.

And Apple users forgo _lots_ and _lots_ of such functionality.
(e.g., launchers, repositories, app functionality, headphone jacks, etc.)

That's why I say price-to-performance isn't a hallmark of the Apple buyer.
Post by nospam
but
I've never liked the creeping decontenting of consumer products based on
the fact that only a small percentage of people would not buy the
product without a certain feature so it's okay to leave it off to reduce
manufacturing cost and warranty costs. I brought my new laptop into work
and the IT person wanted to hook it into the wired network to do some
software installation because it's faster than the Wi-Fi network; that's
when I realized that there was no wired Ethernet on the new
laptop--dongle time (and I had a heck of a time getting the device to
work, Windows kept insisting that the Lenovo Ethernet dongle was a
CD-ROM drive!
Yikes. A laptop without an RJ45 connector?
Bummer.

It's almost back to the days of, oh, I don't know, two decades ago?
when we had to use a dongle to _get_ Ethernet on a laptop!
JF Mezei
2019-01-19 20:13:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by sms
Obviously we're not going to see a return of the headphone jack, and we
won't see MicroSD card support.
There are logistical issues with external card because of the type of
encryption done on the iPhone which is specific to each phone (so card
couldn't be read/written to from a different device unless its
encryption is different and weaker because the user would have to know
its key.

With regards to the headphone jack, with the move to larger screens, I
have to wonder if the "real estate" is still so restrictive that it has
no room for the headphoe jack.
nospam
2019-01-19 20:50:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
With regards to the headphone jack, with the move to larger screens, I
have to wonder if the "real estate" is still so restrictive that it has
no room for the headphoe jack.
it's the lack of bezels and that there's no need for a redundant analog
headphone jack when there's a more functional digital headphone jack
already there.
badgolferman
2019-01-19 22:33:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by JF Mezei
With regards to the headphone jack, with the move to larger screens, I
have to wonder if the "real estate" is still so restrictive that it has
no room for the headphoe jack.
it's the lack of bezels and that there's no need for a redundant analog
headphone jack when there's a more functional digital headphone jack
already there.
This is a matter of opinion. Many of us prefer the regular headphones that
don’t require to be charged and cost much less, not to mention we have many
already sitting around. Then there’s the matter of plugging the phone into
existing speakers. Bluetooth headphones don’t appeal to me or my family.
nospam
2019-01-19 22:46:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by badgolferman
Post by nospam
Post by JF Mezei
With regards to the headphone jack, with the move to larger screens, I
have to wonder if the "real estate" is still so restrictive that it has
no room for the headphoe jack.
it's the lack of bezels and that there's no need for a redundant analog
headphone jack when there's a more functional digital headphone jack
already there.
This is a matter of opinion.
no it isn't. there isn't any space underneath the display for an analog
headphone jack and headphones can be used with the lightning (iphone)
or usb port (android), which being digital, has more functionality and
is also far more reliable and anything an analog headphone could
possible do.
Post by badgolferman
Many of us prefer the regular headphones that
don¹t require to be charged and cost much less,
yep, and there's a set included in the box.
Post by badgolferman
not to mention we have many
already sitting around.
then use an adapter.

it used to be included with the iphone x, but it turns out that not
that many people used it, preferring the included headphones or
bluetooth headphones, so it's now an optional extra (and cheap).
Post by badgolferman
Then there¹s the matter of plugging the phone into
existing speakers.
who does that?

but if you do, airplay works exceptionally well.
Post by badgolferman
Bluetooth headphones don¹t appeal to me or my family.
that's fine, but bluetooth headphones are outselling wired ones, so
they clearly appeal to a *lot* of people.

try them some time. not having dangling wires that gets caught on stuff
or tangled when put in a pocket is well worth it.
JF Mezei
2019-01-20 01:26:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
no it isn't. there isn't any space underneath the display for an analog
headphone jack and headphones can be used with the lightning (iphone)
Fact: iPhone 4 was much smaller, and narrower. It had space for both the
analogue headphone jack AND a very large 30 pin USB/etc connector.

To state that the much bigger X class iPhone has no space for an alaogue
headphone jack is wrong. Where there is a will, there is a way.
Post by nospam
that's fine, but bluetooth headphones are outselling wired ones, so
they clearly appeal to a *lot* of people.
Statistics. Because wired ones come with the phone, people don't buy
them separately so sales of such headphones are low.

It is bad enough that we can't charge the iPhone while listening to
music, but now, you expect us to wear hearphones that need to be charged
too. If you're traveling and battery is low, you have to end music so
you can charge you phone from aircraft/train power or from a power pack.
nospam
2019-01-20 02:40:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
no it isn't. there isn't any space underneath the display for an analog
headphone jack and headphones can be used with the lightning (iphone)
Fact: iPhone 4 was much smaller, and narrower. It had space for both the
analogue headphone jack AND a very large 30 pin USB/etc connector.
fact: there was plenty of room under the bezel.
Post by JF Mezei
To state that the much bigger X class iPhone has no space for an alaogue
headphone jack is wrong.
nope, because there's no space under the display, which is now edge to
edge.
Post by JF Mezei
Where there is a will, there is a way.
there is no will to use an analog headphone jack anymore because a
digital headphone jack is better.

not only are there space constraints for an analog headphone jack, but
it's a common point of failure and makes it harder to make the device
water resistant.
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
that's fine, but bluetooth headphones are outselling wired ones, so
they clearly appeal to a *lot* of people.
Statistics. Because wired ones come with the phone, people don't buy
them separately so sales of such headphones are low.
nonsense.

and if they're going to use the bundled headphones, then it doesn't
matter what type of connector it uses.
Post by JF Mezei
It is bad enough that we can't charge the iPhone while listening to
music,
nonsense. put it on a wireless charging pad.

it's also rarely needed since the phone's battery will last more than a
day (usually more than 2 days) in typical use. at some point during
that time, you'll need to sleep, at which point everything can be
recharged.
Post by JF Mezei
but now, you expect us to wear hearphones that need to be charged
too. If you're traveling and battery is low, you have to end music so
you can charge you phone from aircraft/train power or from a power pack.
charge everything before you travel. problem solved.

you'd have a bigger problem if the phone's battery was low and you were
using wired headphones.

that too is not an issue, since battery life for bluetooth headphones
is excellent. airpods get 5 hours *each*, with an additional 24 hours
in the case. larger bluetooth headphones get more than 12 hours per
charge. again, at some point during that time, you'll need to sleep, at
which point everything can be recharged.
arlen holder
2019-01-20 05:45:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
there is no will to use an analog headphone jack anymore because a
digital headphone jack is better.
You spout false 3rd-grade Apple MARKETING messages rather well.
sms
2019-01-20 21:18:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
no it isn't. there isn't any space underneath the display for an analog
headphone jack and headphones can be used with the lightning (iphone)
Fact: iPhone 4 was much smaller, and narrower. It had space for both the
analogue headphone jack AND a very large 30 pin USB/etc connector.
To state that the much bigger X class iPhone has no space for an alaogue
headphone jack is wrong. Where there is a will, there is a way.
The issue is that once the jack was removed from the iPhone 7 they
really could not bring it back on the larger phones. That would have
sent the wrong message.

While "space" was one reason for the removal the headphone jack, it was
not the main reason, as I explained in an earlier post:

1. IP68
2. Warranty repair costs
3. Manufacturing costs
4. Licensing royalties from MFi
5. Space.
6. Encouraging the purchase of Airpods
7. Revenue from selling Lightning to analog dongles
8. Philosophy of minimizing the number of ports
9. Courage
Post by JF Mezei
It is bad enough that we can't charge the iPhone while listening to
music, but now, you expect us to wear hearphones that need to be charged
too. If you're traveling and battery is low, you have to end music so
you can charge you phone from aircraft/train power or from a power pack.
The system was not thought out well. Kind of like the original iPad Pro
and how the Apple Pencil was charged. Much improved on the new iPad Pro.

I think that the hassle of charging another a device is the major reason
that wired headphones continue to far outsell Bluetooth
headphones/earbuds. Price is another reason, but you can now buy decent
Bluetooth headphones/earbuds for as little as $10 so clearly price is
less of a reason that it was in the past.

Another reason why wired headphones continue to outsell Bluetooth
headphones is that frequent air travelers want headphones that they can
plug into the headphone jack on the airplane, generally noise cancelling
headphones. My brother-in-law travels a lot and he wants a larger screen
iPhone but won't buy one without a headphone jack because of the lack of
headphone jack. He wants to charge the phone on the plane from the USB
power port and listen to music at the same time, but also use the
headphones while watching movies on the plane. I know you can buy an
adapter that allows this, for $35, but he doesn't like carrying around
all these bits and pieces
<https://www.apple.com/shop/product/HLJV2ZM/A/belkin-35-mm-audio-charge-rockstar>.
nospam
2019-01-20 21:38:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by sms
While "space" was one reason for the removal the headphone jack, it was
your explanations are trivially disproven.

space in a mobile device is at a very high premium. the space used for
an analog headphone jack can be better used for other purposes, such as
an edge to edge display. there is no space underneath it.

an analog headphone jack is no longer needed. phones (not just apple)
have a perfectly functional digital headphone jack *and* bundled
headphones that plug directly into it.

apple was *not* first to drop the headphone jack. it was actually
android.
Post by sms
I think that the hassle of charging another a device is the major reason
that wired headphones continue to far outsell Bluetooth
headphones/earbuds.
they don't. yet another 'claim' that's trivially disproven.

<https://www.npd.com/wps/portal/npd/us/news/press-releases/2016/bluetoot
h-capable-headphone-sales-surpass-non-bluetooth-sales/>
According to The NPD Group's Retail Tracking Service, Bluetooth
headphone revenue overtook non-Bluetooth for the first time in June
accounting for 54 percent of headphone dollar sales and 17 percent of
unit sales in the U.S.
While the headphone category saw a 7 percent year-over-year increase
in dollar sales for the first half of 2016, Bluetooth headphones saw
double-digit growth with a 42 percent year-over-year increase in
dollar sales for the first half of the year.

most of the unit sales for wired headphones are cheapos, which are lost
or broken and replaced with another cheapo, thereby artificially
inflating the numbers.

the trend is very clear, and this chart is from two years ago:
<https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/styles/600_wide/public/160810_Head
phoneNews_Graph_WirelessOvertake_0.jpg>
Post by sms
Price is another reason, but you can now buy decent
Bluetooth headphones/earbuds for as little as $10 so clearly price is
less of a reason that it was in the past.
$10 bluetooth headphones are not that good. pretty bad, in fact.
Post by sms
Another reason why wired headphones continue to outsell Bluetooth
headphones
again, they don't.
Post by sms
is that frequent air travelers want headphones that they can
plug into the headphone jack on the airplane, generally noise cancelling
headphones.
frequent air travelers bring their own entertainment, and have for
*years*.
JF Mezei
2019-01-21 00:31:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
space in a mobile device is at a very high premium.
Why does Apple insist on keeping tha terrible button next to the volume
buttons to mute alarms where instead of moving it to the control centre
where it belongs ?

Real estate is a problem for Jony Ive whe has wet dreams over a paper
thin phone with no bezel and screen only.
nospam
2019-01-21 00:35:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
space in a mobile device is at a very high premium.
Why does Apple insist on keeping tha terrible button next to the volume
buttons to mute alarms where instead of moving it to the control centre
where it belongs ?
nothing terrible about it. it's far more useful as a physical button
and is one of the few phones, if not the only one, to have it.

it sucks that the ipad removed it.
Post by JF Mezei
Real estate is a problem for Jony Ive whe has wet dreams over a paper
thin phone with no bezel and screen only.
unlike you, he is based in reality.
sms
2019-01-21 00:38:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Why does Apple insist on keeping tha terrible button next to the volume
buttons to mute alarms where instead of moving it to the control centre
where it belongs ?
Is that button still present on the new models?

It's superfluous but if you've ever been in a situation where someone's
phone starts ringing, or alarms go off, and they struggle to silence it,
you can understand the benefit.

Still, in the effort to remove as many buttons, sensors, and ports from
the iPhone, this one somehow survived yet the much more useful headphone
jack did not.
nospam
2019-01-21 00:48:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by sms
Post by JF Mezei
Why does Apple insist on keeping tha terrible button next to the volume
buttons to mute alarms where instead of moving it to the control centre
where it belongs ?
Is that button still present on the new models?
absolutely.
Post by sms
It's superfluous but if you've ever been in a situation where someone's
phone starts ringing, or alarms go off, and they struggle to silence it,
you can understand the benefit.
it is not superfluous at all. it's actually quite useful.
Post by sms
Still, in the effort to remove as many buttons, sensors, and ports from
the iPhone,
there is no such effort.
Post by sms
this one somehow survived yet the much more useful headphone
jack did not.
it didn't 'survive' anything. there is no reason to remove it.
JF Mezei
2019-01-21 01:33:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
it is not superfluous at all. it's actually quite useful.
When I need an alarm, I set it. Then with ohone still on, I have to
switch that damned button a bnumbver of times to see the indication on
screen whether alarm is disabled or enabled.

Usefull&? It's a hassle.

If you missed a flighT/ train/appointment because alarm didn't ring
because of that button, you would know.
nospam
2019-01-21 01:41:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
it is not superfluous at all. it's actually quite useful.
When I need an alarm, I set it. Then with ohone still on, I have to
switch that damned button a bnumbver of times to see the indication on
screen whether alarm is disabled or enabled.
no you don't, nor does it even matter.
Post by JF Mezei
Usefull&? It's a hassle.
it's not a hassle at all.
Post by JF Mezei
If you missed a flighT/ train/appointment because alarm didn't ring
because of that button, you would know.
it will ring.

tl;dr - user error
sms
2019-01-21 02:03:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
it is not superfluous at all. it's actually quite useful.
When I need an alarm, I set it. Then with ohone still on, I have to
switch that damned button a bnumbver of times to see the indication on
screen whether alarm is disabled or enabled.
Usefull&? It's a hassle.
If you missed a flighT/ train/appointment because alarm didn't ring
because of that button, you would know.
It's not just for alarms, it's for all sound. It's a fast way to silence
the phone. I like it.
nospam
2019-01-21 02:19:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by sms
It's not just for alarms, it's for all sound. It's a fast way to silence
the phone. I like it.
wrong on that too.

it's for *some* sounds, such as incoming calls or texts, for which the
user has no control. it does *not* affect sounds the user expects, such
as music, alarms and many apps (it depends how they handle sound).
arlen holder
2019-01-21 22:19:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
it's for *some* sounds, such as incoming calls or texts, for which the
user has no control. it does *not* affect sounds the user expects, such
as music, alarms and many apps (it depends how they handle sound).
This ability to comprehend even slightly more detail is what sets you
uniquely apart from the other Apple Apologists, nospam.

I must admit - they're easy to figure out - but you're still an enigma.
Sigh.

You're not stupid like they clearly are.
o And yet, you're almost always wrong
o Which is easily proved (usually in about 10 seconds)

But ... the enigma is ...
o You're sometimes actually right on your facts (oddly enough)
o And, you sometimes actually back it up with adult logic & reason

I think you're kind of like James Comey is, much as we both hate him.
o You have an agenda
o That agenda leaves no space for your credibility to survive
sms
2019-01-21 21:47:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
space in a mobile device is at a very high premium.
Why does Apple insist on keeping tha terrible button next to the volume
buttons to mute alarms where instead of moving it to the control centre
where it belongs ?
Real estate is a problem for Jony Ive whe has wet dreams over a paper
thin phone with no bezel and screen only.
Are we talking about the same button? The Ring/Silent button above the
volume buttons?

<Loading Image...>

"Ring/Silent (iPhone only): Use to mute sounds and alerts on your
iPhone. If the switch shows orange, it means your iPhone is in silent
mode and will vibrate for incoming calls or alerts. When in silent mode,
the alarms you set in the Clock app will still sound, and calls from
Favorite contacts will still ring."

So according to Apple, turning that switch off doesn't turn off alarms,
it only silences incoming calls and alerts.
nospam
2019-01-21 22:30:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by sms
So according to Apple, turning that switch off doesn't turn off alarms,
it only silences incoming calls and alerts.
which yesterday you incorrectly said turned off all sounds.
JF Mezei
2019-01-21 23:25:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by sms
"Ring/Silent (iPhone only): Use to mute sounds and alerts on your
iPhone. If the switch shows orange, it means your iPhone is in silent
mode and will vibrate for incoming calls or alerts. When in silent mode,
the alarms you set in the Clock app will still sound, and calls from
Favorite contacts will still ring."
Was this always the case? Am wondering if in previous versions it might
have muted alarms too.
David Empson
2019-01-21 23:29:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by sms
"Ring/Silent (iPhone only): Use to mute sounds and alerts on your
iPhone. If the switch shows orange, it means your iPhone is in silent
mode and will vibrate for incoming calls or alerts. When in silent mode,
the alarms you set in the Clock app will still sound, and calls from
Favorite contacts will still ring."
Was this always the case? Am wondering if in previous versions it might
have muted alarms too.
Always the case as far back as my experience with iPhones (iPhone 3GS
running iPhone OS 3): I've almost always had that switch set to mute the
phone ringing but I use my iPhone for alarms, which work fine.
--
David Empson
***@actrix.gen.nz
JF Mezei
2019-01-22 04:59:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Empson
Always the case as far back as my experience with iPhones (iPhone 3GS
running iPhone OS 3): I've almost always had that switch set to mute the
phone ringing but I use my iPhone for alarms, which work fine.
I guess it was a glitch that caused the alarm to not ring. per pehaps
combo of volume and the mute switch and blamed iot on the mute switch.
All I know that that I have never trusted that switch and need to always
turn on the phone and vflick the switch to make sure it is not set to
block anything (with a silicone cover, ones doesn't see well the
physical position of the switch.
sms
2019-01-22 15:39:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by David Empson
Always the case as far back as my experience with iPhones (iPhone 3GS
running iPhone OS 3): I've almost always had that switch set to mute the
phone ringing but I use my iPhone for alarms, which work fine.
I guess it was a glitch that caused the alarm to not ring. per pehaps
combo of volume and the mute switch and blamed iot on the mute switch.
All I know that that I have never trusted that switch and need to always
turn on the phone and vflick the switch to make sure it is not set to
block anything (with a silicone cover, ones doesn't see well the
physical position of the switch.
True. I have a cover on my iPhone and that switch is pretty well concealed.

When my wife got her latest iPhone it had the switch in the silent
position. She had never touched that switch on her previous iPhone and
didn't even know what it did. It took Googling it to figure out why the
phone wasn't ringing.

I think that that switch should be programmable to silence different
things. There should be a setup option with check boxes to choose what
flipping that switch does:

O Completely Silence (if you're in an environment where you have to
silence your phone, like a movie or symphony)
O Silence Alarms
O Silence Notifications
O Silence All Calls
O Silence All Calls Except Calls from Contacts
O Silence All Calls Except from Favorite Contacts
O Disable switch

I'll talk to Tim and suggest this feature addition to iOS.
nospam
2019-01-22 18:20:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by sms
When my wife got her latest iPhone it had the switch in the silent
position. She had never touched that switch on her previous iPhone and
didn't even know what it did. It took Googling it to figure out why the
phone wasn't ringing.
it doesn't ship that way. she or someone else toggled it.
Post by sms
I think that that switch should be programmable to silence different
things. There should be a setup option with check boxes to choose what
no there definitely shouldn't. it works perfectly fine the way it is
now.
Post by sms
I'll talk to Tim and suggest this feature addition to iOS.
keep dreaming.
nospam
2019-01-21 23:44:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by sms
"Ring/Silent (iPhone only): Use to mute sounds and alerts on your
iPhone. If the switch shows orange, it means your iPhone is in silent
mode and will vibrate for incoming calls or alerts. When in silent mode,
the alarms you set in the Clock app will still sound, and calls from
Favorite contacts will still ring."
Was this always the case?
yes
Post by JF Mezei
Am wondering if in previous versions it might
have muted alarms too.
no

the way it works is so that you can silence the ringer and not be
disturbed by phone calls, but will be woken up by the alarm.

on other phones, setting it to silent mode meant the alarms were also
silenced.
arlen holder
2019-01-21 22:19:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
apple was *not* first to drop the headphone jack. it was actually
android.
Classic.
I've studied you Apologists for years, and have chiseled in stone your
_Seven Basic Habits_ when responding to facts, nospam.

o Seven Basic Habits of the Apple Apologists
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/18ARDsEOPzM/veU8FwAjBQAJ>

One of those classic responses, is to "blame Android" for Apple's actions.
7 Common Habits of the Apple Apologists:

. They brazenly & repeatedly fabricate wholly imaginary app functionality
. They then exclaim that it's been told to us many times how to do it
...
. They almost never back up statements with actual referenced facts
. They incessantly play childish semantic games when faced with those facts
...
. They consistently fabricate quoted content that never happened
. They then wittily respond to that imaginary quoted content as if it did!
...
. They're never purposefully helpful by helping the OP answer the question
. They post worthless retorts, all of which lack any added technical value
...
. *They consistently blame Android for Apple's app & hardware faults*
. They consistently find the absolute worst price:performance comparisons
...
. They actually believe that a well-documented process is too complex!
. They literally believe elapsed time is proof of actual resolution time.
...
. They deny facts a priori - without even reading the referenced facts
. Then they complain about quote snipping of their silly semantic games
sms
2019-01-22 05:22:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by arlen holder
Post by nospam
apple was *not* first to drop the headphone jack. it was actually
android.
Classic.
Well there was one U.S. marketed phone, the Moto Z, that lacked a
headphone jack and it was pre-iPhone 7. There were some others in China.

But "Android did not drop the headphone jack" an Android device
manufacturer dropped it. And it's immaterial who dropped it first.

Using separately purchased accessories to regain base functionality that
has been dropped through decontenting is a familiar ritual for phones,
computers, vehicles, bicycles, etc.

Whenever a manufacturer removes a feature from a product there are those
that are upset about it. But decontenting is a way of life. Companies
try to determine how many, if any, product sales will be lost by
removing a feature and whether or not the cost savings that they gain
will offset the profit from the lost sales. It's not easy to measure the
effect. If sales fall was it the decontenting to blame? If sales go up
would they have gone up even more if not for the decontenting? With the
iPhone, besides the cost savings in manufacturing and warranty repairs,
there are revenue gains from MFi licensing, the sale of Air Pods, and
the sale of the digital to analog dongles.

Obviously all of this was taken into account when the design decision
was made. I've been in these kinds of meetings. Generally the design
engineers don't want to remove functionality and the accounting and
marketing people do. From a purely financial standpoint, the accounting
and marketing people are usually right, but not always. One major
mistake that the marketing people made with the iPhone was in taking so
long before coming out with a dual-SIM model for China because that's an
absolute no-compromise requirement for so many Chinese consumers.
nospam
2019-01-22 06:30:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by sms
Post by arlen holder
Post by nospam
apple was *not* first to drop the headphone jack. it was actually
android.
Classic.
Well there was one U.S. marketed phone, the Moto Z, that lacked a
headphone jack and it was pre-iPhone 7. There were some others in China.
actually there were several in the usa before the iphone 7 that did not
have an analog headphone jack, including andy rubin's essential phone,
the person who created android.

they *do* have a headphone jack, it's just not analog anymore.

however, i wasn't referring to those.

the very first android phone, the t-mobile g1, did not have an analog
headphone jack, released back in 2008, more than a decade ago and long
before the iphone 7 was even an idea, let alone a product.

it also used a non-standard ext-usb port and the adapter was not
available for a while.

<https://www.engadget.com/2008/09/23/confirmed-t-mobile-g1-has-no-3-5mm-
headphone-jack/>
Hey, that's pretty awesome that Amazon's thrown together an MP3
store app for the G1, isn't it? What would be even cooler still,
though, is if you could actually listen to those tracks without a
crazy dongle hanging off your phone. Like many recent HTCs (Touch
HD notably excepted), the G1 eschews a standard 3.5mm headphone
jack for its proprietary ExtUSB connector, meaning you'll need custom
headphones or an adapter to plug in your own. What's worse, the
adapter won't be available immediately at launch, just a bundled
headset. Why, HTC? Why?
Post by sms
But "Android did not drop the headphone jack" an Android device
manufacturer dropped it.
semantics. the point is that it wasn't apple.
Post by sms
And it's immaterial who dropped it first.
then why do you keep criticizing apple for doing what many device
makers are doing, a number that continues to increase?

other than trolling, that is.
Post by sms
Using separately purchased accessories to regain base functionality
there is no need to purchase anything extra.

lighting headphones are included in the box and any bluetooth headphone
works perfectly fine. for android, usb-c headphones.

an analog headphone jack is redundant when there is a *digital*
headphone jack that works better and more reliably.
JF Mezei
2019-01-22 19:13:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by sms
that are upset about it. But decontenting is a way of life. Companies
try to determine how many, if any, product sales will be lost by
removing a feature and whether or not the cost savings that they gain
will offset the profit from the lost sales.
This is a dangerous practice because it cannot quantify loss of loyalty.

For instance, consider this theoretical scenario:

Remove the headphone jack on iPhone 7, sales still go up. So accountants
see no damage.

But add a few years and Apple notices sales go down and complains about
people keeping their 6s longer than they had expected.

Blaming only price is wrong. There is also the loss of touchID, and the
loss of headphone jack.

So it isn't so much comparing each year's model vs previous year, you
need to look at what whart phones people have which Apple expects people
will want to upgrade. And when that upgrade involves losses without anty
perceived gains, then sales go down.

So the jack may not be THE reason people with a 6s aren't keen to
upgrade, but it is a part of a set of reasons. And as you see Apple
remove features one by one, you lose loyalty to the product.
nospam
2019-01-22 20:00:42 UTC
Permalink
which is deeply flawed.
Post by JF Mezei
Remove the headphone jack on iPhone 7, sales still go up. So accountants
see no damage.
But add a few years and Apple notices sales go down and complains about
people keeping their 6s longer than they had expected.
a *lot* of things have changed since the 6s, so any sales differences
can't be attributed to any one thing.

a few might be sticklers for an analog headphone jack, mostly the apple
haters who have nothing better to do, but there aren't enough to make a
tangible difference in sales. the majority have no problem with it.
Post by JF Mezei
Blaming only price is wrong. There is also the loss of touchID, and the
loss of headphone jack.
there is no loss of anything.

touch id was *replaced* with something better, face id.

the analog headphone jack was *replaced* with something better, a
digital headphone jack.

in your case, where you are out waiting for busses in freezing weather
and presumably wearing gloves, face id would be *much* better.
JF Mezei
2019-01-22 20:13:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
a *lot* of things have changed since the 6s, so any sales differences
can't be attributed to any one thing.
Just because you can't attribute loss of sales to loss of headphone jack
does not mean that this loss isn't a contributing factor.
Post by nospam
touch id was *replaced* with something better, face id.
I certaintly don't find faceID better. To use my phone in cold, I have
to remove both gloves (for touch screen) and hat/balaclava if I rely on
faceID. With touchID gloves were all I needed to remove.
Post by nospam
the analog headphone jack was *replaced* with something better, a
digital headphone jack.
There is no digital headphone jack. You have to plug headphones in the
USB port which prevents you from charging your phone while listening to
music. So that is loss of cuntionality (often used at desk or on a plane
for instance to ensure phone is fully charged).
Post by nospam
in your case, where you are out waiting for busses in freezing weather
and presumably wearing gloves, face id would be *much* better.
No and I described why.

I have to say that I was pleasantly surprised that during my bike trip
in Hawaii (first since getting the phone), faceID worked relatively well
with bike helmet and sunglasses, but was not perfect. A number of times
just entered the passkey because it removed to recognize me. A few
times, faceID was totally failing to recognize me until I
rebooted.Hasn't happened since (perhaps 12.1.2 fixed it)
nospam
2019-01-22 20:23:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
a *lot* of things have changed since the 6s, so any sales differences
can't be attributed to any one thing.
Just because you can't attribute loss of sales to loss of headphone jack
does not mean that this loss isn't a contributing factor.
it might have been, but there's no way to single any one thing out over
everything that changed.

a bigger factor is the economy and that the 6s is still a decent phone.
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
touch id was *replaced* with something better, face id.
I certaintly don't find faceID better. To use my phone in cold, I have
to remove both gloves (for touch screen) and hat/balaclava if I rely on
faceID. With touchID gloves were all I needed to remove.
you only need to remove the balaclava.
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
the analog headphone jack was *replaced* with something better, a
digital headphone jack.
There is no digital headphone jack.
yes there is.
Post by JF Mezei
You have to plug headphones in the
USB port
in other words, a digital headphone jack.

once again, it's a *lightning* port on iphones. did you trade your
phone in for an android phone? those use usb-c (or micro, mini and even
extusb).
Post by JF Mezei
which prevents you from charging your phone while listening to
music.
nope. drop it on a wireless charging pad. done.

battery life for listening to music is 60 hours on an iphone xs (and
similar time on others), and at some point during that time you will
need to sleep, so charge it via a cable then.
JF Mezei
2019-01-22 22:39:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
once again, it's a *lightning* port on iphones.
Funny how it uses the USB protocol though, isn't it?
Post by nospam
nope. drop it on a wireless charging pad. done.
Which airplane and airline provide wireless charging pads at every seat?

Does the XS come woth a wireless charging pad? It didn't for me.
Post by nospam
battery life for listening to music is 60 hours on an iphone xs
You have got to be kidding. My iPhone XS doesn't last 60 hours. And
guess what, I don't just do music. And despite not being a heavy user,
rarely playing videos and never games, it doesn't last anywhere near 60
hours. And that is with perhaps 3 hours of listening to music per day
(commute).
nospam
2019-01-22 23:29:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
once again, it's a *lightning* port on iphones.
Funny how it uses the USB protocol though, isn't it?
funny how it's not a usb port and you have no idea what the protocol
used actually is.

lightning can redefine the function of the data pins which means it can
adapt to newer protocols.

since apple makes both the phone and the headphones, they can use
whatever they want.
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
nope. drop it on a wireless charging pad. done.
Which airplane and airline provide wireless charging pads at every seat?
charge it before you depart, like any traveler would.
Post by JF Mezei
Does the XS come woth a wireless charging pad? It didn't for me.
nobody said it did.
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
battery life for listening to music is 60 hours on an iphone xs
You have got to be kidding. My iPhone XS doesn't last 60 hours. And
guess what, I don't just do music. And despite not being a heavy user,
rarely playing videos and never games, it doesn't last anywhere near 60
hours. And that is with perhaps 3 hours of listening to music per day
(commute).
nope.

<https://www.apple.com/iphone-xs/specs/>
Audio playback (wireless): Up to 60 hours

note that is *wireless*. it will be *longer* if it's wired.
sms
2019-01-22 22:19:37 UTC
Permalink
On 1/22/2019 12:13 PM, JF Mezei wrote:

<snip>
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
the analog headphone jack was *replaced* with something better, a
digital headphone jack.
There is no digital headphone jack. You have to plug headphones in the
USB port which prevents you from charging your phone while listening to
music. So that is loss of cuntionality (often used at desk or on a plane
for instance to ensure phone is fully charged).
The Lightning Port, not the USB port. Key difference because of MFi
royalties on Lightning accessories. But as you stated, it's not a
"digital headphone jack." The D/A converter has to be somewhere. It's
either in the dongle, in the headphones, or in the phone. Moving it out
of the phone saves money, especially since a dongle is no longer
included in the box

However there are advantages to moving the D/A converter and amplifier
from inside the phone into the headphones. In high-end headphones a
higher-quality D/A converter and amplifier are used because there are no
space or cost constraints. Also, for noise-cancelling headphones you can
power the circuit from the phone, with no battery needed.

When listening tests were done, with high-end headphones that support
both Lightning and an analog headphone jack, the Lightning connection
had higher quality audio. However Bluetooth audio quality was ranked the
lowest, below wired Lightning or wired analog.

<https://www.techradar.com/news/phone-and-communications/mobile-phones/why-the-lightning-port-beats-bluetooth-for-sound-quality-1327836>

<https://www.soundguys.com/5-reasons-not-to-buy-bluetooth-headphones-12150/>

Bottom line is that if you want the best sound quality then buy high-end
wired Lightning headphones. Second are analog headphones, last is Bluetooth.

<snip>

No and I described why.
Post by JF Mezei
I have to say that I was pleasantly surprised that during my bike trip
in Hawaii (first since getting the phone), faceID worked relatively well
with bike helmet and sunglasses, but was not perfect. A number of times
just entered the passkey because it removed to recognize me. A few
times, faceID was totally failing to recognize me until I
rebooted.Hasn't happened since (perhaps 12.1.2 fixed it)
It's so annoying to be behind someone in the checkout line who's trying
to get FaceID to work so they can use Apple Pay. And this is without
sunglasses or bicycle helmets. And it always seems to happen when there
is only a single checkout line open at Sprouts.

No reason not to have multiple options, Face recognition, iris scan, and
fingerprint. There's also the issue of security. All the experts agree
that a fingerprint is far more secure. There's a good article about this
here: <https://www.bayometric.com/fingerprint-vs-facial-recognition/>


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
nospam
2019-01-22 23:29:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by sms
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
the analog headphone jack was *replaced* with something better, a
digital headphone jack.
There is no digital headphone jack. You have to plug headphones in the
USB port which prevents you from charging your phone while listening to
music. So that is loss of cuntionality (often used at desk or on a plane
for instance to ensure phone is fully charged).
The Lightning Port, not the USB port. Key difference because of MFi
royalties on Lightning accessories.
nope. the key difference is the electrical and physical design of the
connector and signaling protocols, which is adaptable. mfi licensing is
minor.
Post by sms
But as you stated, it's not a
"digital headphone jack."
that's *exactly* what it is, given that headphones plug directly into
it:
<https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/61372299/apple-iphon
e-watch-20160907-5180.0.0.1473272736.0.jpeg>
Post by sms
The D/A converter has to be somewhere. It's
either in the dongle, in the headphones, or in the phone. Moving it out
of the phone saves money, especially since a dongle is no longer
included in the box
the cost savings is negligible and there's no need for a dongle since
the bundled headphones plug directly into the lightning port.
Post by sms
However there are advantages to moving the D/A converter and amplifier
from inside the phone into the headphones. In high-end headphones a
higher-quality D/A converter and amplifier are used because there are no
space or cost constraints.
there always are space and cost constraints, especially for headphones,
but regardless, there is no reason why a high quailty dac can't be used
in bluetooth headphones, which is exactly what some do. not that anyone
can hear a difference between dacs, although there are audiophiles who
think they can (they can't).
Post by sms
Also, for noise-cancelling headphones you can
power the circuit from the phone, with no battery needed.
except for the battery in the phone, which will now drain faster. the
power has to come from somewhere.
Post by sms
When listening tests were done, with high-end headphones that support
both Lightning and an analog headphone jack, the Lightning connection
had higher quality audio. However Bluetooth audio quality was ranked the
lowest, below wired Lightning or wired analog.
that depends on the headphones. your links didn't test anything and got
a number of details wrong. it was just repeating the usual mantra.

airpods definitely sound better than wired earpods. no lab bench
needed. put one in each ear, which i've done.
Post by sms
Bottom line is that if you want the best sound quality then buy high-end
wired Lightning headphones. Second are analog headphones, last is Bluetooth.
false, and most people don't care about the best sound quality. they
are happy with the bundled headphones or bluetooth headphones.
Post by sms
<snip>
No and I described why.
no, you fabricated stuff, pretending it's legit, as you usually do.
Post by sms
Post by JF Mezei
I have to say that I was pleasantly surprised that during my bike trip
in Hawaii (first since getting the phone), faceID worked relatively well
with bike helmet and sunglasses, but was not perfect. A number of times
just entered the passkey because it removed to recognize me. A few
times, faceID was totally failing to recognize me until I
rebooted.Hasn't happened since (perhaps 12.1.2 fixed it)
It's so annoying to be behind someone in the checkout line who's trying
to get FaceID to work so they can use Apple Pay. And this is without
sunglasses or bicycle helmets. And it always seems to happen when there
is only a single checkout line open at Sprouts.
nonsense.

paying with apple pay is *much* faster than a dip or swipe, unless the
terminal fails to read, which does happen on occasion and has nothing
to do with face id or touch id and would also affect google pay and
likely tapping.

tl;dr defective or misconfigured terminal, not the method of payment.
Post by sms
No reason not to have multiple options, Face recognition, iris scan, and
fingerprint.
actually, there are numerous reasons.
Post by sms
There's also the issue of security. All the experts agree
that a fingerprint is far more secure. There's a good article about this
here: <https://www.bayometric.com/fingerprint-vs-facial-recognition/>
not a credible link. that company makes fingerprint sensors, so of
course they're going to say it's better, and their comparison is simply
ludicrous.

'all the experts agree' (a logical fallacy) that apple's face id is
more secure than touch id.

android's face unlock is a different story, but that's only because
their implementations laughably bad, not because the concept itself is
flawed. being able to spoof it with a selfie is a joke.
Post by sms
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fix that shit, again.
JF Mezei
2019-01-23 21:09:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by sms
But as you stated, it's not a
"digital headphone jack."
that's *exactly* what it is, given that headphones plug directly into
Then the USB plug on my XServe is a headphone jack because I have
speakers connected to it.

Just because a data jack, no matter its shape, is able to output digital
audio to devices which can convert it to analogue doesn't make it a
"headphone jack".
Post by nospam
the cost savings is negligible and there's no need for a dongle since
the bundled headphones plug directly into the lightning port.
But the amplified speakers or cable to stereo use standard headphone
jacks which ca no longer be plugged without the dongle.

You are forgetting the types of uses where audio from the phone goes to
some amplified ieithjer in home or in car. Not all cars are equipped
with a lightning cable. No aircraft is equipped with lightning cable.
Post by nospam
paying with apple pay is *much* faster than a dip or swipe,
No different than tap/pay with a regular card. Same protocol, same
response time. And with face ID, you must first click twice on the side
button, then put your face in front of ophone and then present phone
over the POS terminal. Card is faster, unless your phone is already in
your hand.
Post by nospam
android's face unlock is a different story, but that's only because
Does Android have face unlock, or do specific manufacturers incorporate
their own face unlock hardware and software to do it ?

Or does Android provide a "vanilla" face unlock using the low quality
selfie camera (front camera) on all phones ?
nospam
2019-01-23 21:54:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
Post by sms
But as you stated, it's not a
"digital headphone jack."
that's *exactly* what it is, given that headphones plug directly into
Then the USB plug on my XServe is a headphone jack because I have
speakers connected to it.
Just because a data jack, no matter its shape, is able to output digital
audio to devices which can convert it to analogue doesn't make it a
"headphone jack".
i didn't say all usb ports are digital headphone jacks.

i said the iphone has a digital headphone jack, and it's not a usb port
either.

wired headphones, which are included with the phone, plug directly into
the lightning port, thereby making it a headphone jack. simple concept.

<https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article8343889.ece/ALTERNATES/s81
0/iPhone-7-space-black-rendering.jpg>

android uses usb-c, which intel is also pushing to replace the analog
jack:
<https://www.theverge.com/2016/8/17/12519936/intel-usb-type-c-headphone-
jack-replacement-idf-2016>
At the Intel Developer Forum in San Francisco yesterday, Intel
architects Brad Saunders and Rahman Ismail explained how improvements
to the USB-C standard, slated to arrive later this year, could make
it a far better port for the modern-day smartphone, according to
CNET. The most obvious advantage, at least to devices manufacturers,
is slimmer phones. Without needing to route analog circuitry, a phone
maker could switch to digital audio and shave off precious
millimeters from the device's body. With digital audio, Saunders
added, software and device makers could help cheaper earbuds take
advantage of features reserved for more expensive headphones, like
noise cancelling and bass boosting.
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
the cost savings is negligible and there's no need for a dongle since
the bundled headphones plug directly into the lightning port.
But the amplified speakers or cable to stereo use standard headphone
jacks which ca no longer be plugged without the dongle.
You are forgetting the types of uses where audio from the phone goes to
some amplified ieithjer in home or in car. Not all cars are equipped
with a lightning cable. No aircraft is equipped with lightning cable.
use an adapter for the home audio system, or go wireless with airplay.
cars are already wireless and airplanes do not matter since pax bring
their own entertainment in the form of phones and tablets.
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
paying with apple pay is *much* faster than a dip or swipe,
No different than tap/pay with a regular card. Same protocol, same
response time. And with face ID, you must first click twice on the side
button, then put your face in front of ophone and then present phone
over the POS terminal. Card is faster, unless your phone is already in
your hand.
apple pay is faster because you will need to dig out your wallet, pull
out the appropriate card and then tap, and likely to get a sig verify,
at least here.

it's even faster with an apple watch.
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
android's face unlock is a different story, but that's only because
Does Android have face unlock, or do specific manufacturers incorporate
their own face unlock hardware and software to do it ?
both.

<https://thenextweb.com/google/2011/11/11/android-4-0-face-unlock-featur
e-defeated-using-a-photo-video/>
Face Unlock, a new security feature within Google¹s new Ice Cream
Sandwich Android update that allows handset owners to unlock their
device using Android¹s face recognition capabilities, appears to
suffer from an issue that will allow a photo the handset owner to
unlock a device, a new video posted to SoyaCincau.com suggests.

more recently, several manufactures have their own face unlock, but
it's trivially spoofed.

<https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2018/12/13/we-broke-into-a-
bunch-of-android-phones-with-a-3d-printed-head/>
... All of the Androids opened with the fake. Apple's phone, however,
was impenetrable.
sms
2019-01-23 22:16:51 UTC
Permalink
On 1/23/2019 1:09 PM, JF Mezei wrote:

<snip>
Post by JF Mezei
Or does Android provide a "vanilla" face unlock using the low quality
selfie camera (front camera) on all phones ?
The bottom line is that fingerprint reading is much faster, and much
more secure, than face recognition. All the experts agree on this.

<https://apple.slashdot.org/story/17/09/28/2038255/apple-recommends-children-under-13-twins-and-siblings-do-not-use-face-id-on-iphone-x>

<https://www.bayometric.com/fingerprint-vs-facial-recognition/>

<https://www.forbes.com/sites/jvchamary/2017/09/18/security-apple-face-id-iphone-x/#1e5f34f54c83>

In any case, Apple is predicted to follow other smart phone makers and
put the fingerprint reader under the screen. The Synaptics system works
extremely well
<https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/1/9/16867536/vivo-fingerprint-reader-integrated-display-biometric-ces-2018>
and
<https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/6/11/17448214/vivo-x21-ud-in-display-fingerprint-sensor-review>
but Apple also has their own technology to do this
<https://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2018/08/19/apple-iphone-x-plus-se2-x2-upgrade-release-date-price-cost-face-id-touch-id/#4b120f45647a>

BTW, false positives are not the only issue, the delays you see in
checkout lines as people struggle to unlock their phones with their face
are due to false negatives. Stores should have separate lines for those
customers that are going to hold up the line with their payment method,
similar to the old "No Checks" lines that stores used to have. Paying
with a smart phone should be faster, not slower, and if done right it is,


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nospam
2019-01-23 23:24:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by sms
The bottom line is that fingerprint reading is much faster, and much
more secure, than face recognition.
nonsense.
Post by sms
All the experts agree on this.
none do.
Post by sms
In any case, Apple is predicted to follow other smart phone makers and
put the fingerprint reader under the screen.
no they aren't.
Post by sms
The Synaptics system works
extremely well
no it doesn't.

<https://www.theverge.com/2017/6/28/15885502/qualcomm-under-display-fing
erprint-sensor-apple-samsung>
³I found the fingerprint recognition speed to be noticeably slower --
about one second between first touch and entering home screen --
than the near-instantaneous unlock that I'm used to on most recent
smartphones.²

~2 seconds in this video:


compare that with apple's second generation touch id, which unlocks so
fast that it's effectively instant. it's a fraction of a second.

there's no way apple is going to adopt a system that's slower than
their own first generation touch id, let alone second gen, and that's
ignoring the ui issues involved.
Post by sms
BTW, false positives are not the only issue, the delays you see in
checkout lines as people struggle to unlock their phones with their face
are due to false negatives. Stores should have separate lines for those
customers that are going to hold up the line with their payment method,
similar to the old "No Checks" lines that stores used to have.
nonsense.

there are no such delays unless the payment terminal is misconfigured
or defective, which does happen on occasion and is not the fault of
face id, touch id or apple pay.

people fumble with their cards a lot more frequently.

plus if they dip, they have to wait for the transaction to complete
before removing the card. no such wait with apple pay.
Post by sms
Paying
with a smart phone should be faster, not slower, and if done right it is,
it is done right and it's much faster.
Post by sms
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Rod Speed
2019-01-24 02:20:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by sms
<snip>
Post by JF Mezei
Or does Android provide a "vanilla" face unlock using the low quality
selfie camera (front camera) on all phones ?
The bottom line is that fingerprint reading is much faster, and much more
secure, than face recognition. All the experts agree on this.
That’s a lie with the way the iphone does it.
Post by sms
<https://apple.slashdot.org/story/17/09/28/2038255/apple-recommends-children-under-13-twins-and-siblings-do-not-use-face-id-on-iphone-x>
Irrelevant to whether its more secure than touch ID if you arent one of
those.
Post by sms
<https://www.bayometric.com/fingerprint-vs-facial-recognition/>
<https://www.forbes.com/sites/jvchamary/2017/09/18/security-apple-face-id-iphone-x/#1e5f34f54c83>
Ditto.
Post by sms
In any case, Apple is predicted to follow other smart phone makers and put
the fingerprint reader under the screen.
And we will see if they actually do that. I personally home
they do because I prefer touch ID for apple pay transactions,
but would rather have facial recognition for normal ops.
Post by sms
The Synaptics system works extremely well
<https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/1/9/16867536/vivo-fingerprint-reader-integrated-display-biometric-ces-2018>
But isnt as secure as apple touch ID.
Post by sms
and
<https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/6/11/17448214/vivo-x21-ud-in-display-fingerprint-sensor-review>
but Apple also has their own technology to do this
<https://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2018/08/19/apple-iphone-x-plus-se2-x2-upgrade-release-date-price-cost-face-id-touch-id/#4b120f45647a>
BTW, false positives are not the only issue, the delays you see in
checkout lines as people struggle to unlock their phones with their face
are due to false negatives.
Never seen that happen, but then I have never seen
anyone do an apple pay or google pay transaction
either. The checkout people obviously have because
they all know what its about now and I no longer
get the store owner asking what its about with the
smaller stores.
Post by sms
Stores should have separate lines for those customers that are going to
hold up the line with their payment method, similar to the old "No Checks"
lines that stores used to have.
But we don’t for those who pay cash.
Post by sms
Paying with a smart phone should be faster, not slower, and if done right
it is,
It is indeed. But not faster than a tap and go card
as long as the individual has enough of a clue to
get the card out of their wallet before its needed.
Out checkouts actually allow you to wave it at
the terminal before the checkout person has
scanned everything.
David Empson
2019-01-24 00:26:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
Post by sms
But as you stated, it's not a
"digital headphone jack."
that's *exactly* what it is, given that headphones plug directly into
Then the USB plug on my XServe is a headphone jack because I have
speakers connected to it.
Just because a data jack, no matter its shape, is able to output digital
audio to devices which can convert it to analogue doesn't make it a
"headphone jack".
Right back at you: just because a data port, no matter its shape, is
able to connect to USB devices, that doesn't it make it a "USB port".

To be a "USB port" the port must comply with USB standards including the
physical design of the port. The lightning port is physically different
to all standard USB ports. It also cannot be directly connected to USB
devices without a cable or adapter that signals the iOS device to switch
its lightning port to use USB.

Therefore lightning is not a "USB port".

The lightning port also supports peripherals that do not use USB, e.g.
display output and Earpods. Therefore it is only using USB some of the
time (if the connected cable or peripheral is USB).

Lightning has its own protocol (with dedicated pins) for identifying
connected devices and its own method of allocating data lanes to
protocols, which is outside the scope of USB.

This is similar in concept to alternate protocols for USB-C's superspeed
lanes but a different implementation. USB-C always has USB 2.0 available
via dedicated pins, lightning does not.
--
David Empson
***@actrix.gen.nz
Rod Speed
2019-01-23 01:02:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by sms
<snip>
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
the analog headphone jack was *replaced* with something better, a
digital headphone jack.
There is no digital headphone jack. You have to plug headphones in the
USB port which prevents you from charging your phone while listening to
music. So that is loss of cuntionality (often used at desk or on a plane
for instance to ensure phone is fully charged).
The Lightning Port, not the USB port. Key difference because of MFi
royalties on Lightning accessories. But as you stated, it's not a "digital
headphone jack." The D/A converter has to be somewhere. It's either in the
dongle, in the headphones, or in the phone. Moving it out of the phone
saves money, especially since a dongle is no longer included in the box
However there are advantages to moving the D/A converter and amplifier
from inside the phone into the headphones. In high-end headphones a
higher-quality D/A converter and amplifier are used because there are no
space or cost constraints. Also, for noise-cancelling headphones you can
power the circuit from the phone, with no battery needed.
When listening tests were done, with high-end headphones that support both
Lightning and an analog headphone jack, the Lightning connection had
higher quality audio. However Bluetooth audio quality was ranked the
lowest, below wired Lightning or wired analog.
<https://www.techradar.com/news/phone-and-communications/mobile-phones/why-the-lightning-port-beats-bluetooth-for-sound-quality-1327836>
<https://www.soundguys.com/5-reasons-not-to-buy-bluetooth-headphones-12150/>
Bottom line is that if you want the best sound quality then buy high-end
wired Lightning headphones. Second are analog headphones, last is Bluetooth.
<snip>
No and I described why.
Post by JF Mezei
I have to say that I was pleasantly surprised that during my bike trip
in Hawaii (first since getting the phone), faceID worked relatively well
with bike helmet and sunglasses, but was not perfect. A number of times
just entered the passkey because it removed to recognize me. A few
times, faceID was totally failing to recognize me until I
rebooted.Hasn't happened since (perhaps 12.1.2 fixed it)
It's so annoying to be behind someone in the checkout line who's trying to
get FaceID to work so they can use Apple Pay. And this is without
sunglasses or bicycle helmets. And it always seems to happen when there is
only a single checkout line open at Sprouts.
No reason not to have multiple options, Face recognition, iris scan, and
fingerprint.
There is actually. There is no physical home button anymore
so the best place to do the fingerprint sensor is now gone.
Post by sms
There's also the issue of security. All the experts agree that a
fingerprint is far more secure.
No they don’t on the question of false positives
with the best facial recognition with iphones.
Post by sms
<https://www.bayometric.com/fingerprint-vs-facial-recognition/>
Which misses that fundamental point. And isnt
talking about what is most secure on phones anyway,.
sms
2019-01-23 02:58:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rod Speed
There is actually. There is no physical home button anymore
so the best place to do the fingerprint sensor is now gone.
<https://bgr.com/2018/08/15/iphone-x-plus-release-date-soon-next-gen-touch-id-after/>

At least two Chinese phone makers have already done something similar
using technology from Synaptics.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by sms
There's also the issue of security. All the experts agree that a
fingerprint is far more secure.
No they don’t on the question of false positives
with the best facial recognition with iphones.
False positives are the big problem because Face ID is much less secure,
but false negatives are also an annoying problem.

<https://www.bayometric.com/fingerprint-vs-facial-recognition/>
<https://slate.com/technology/2018/07/iphone-face-id-struggles-to-recognize-people-in-the-morning.html>

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nospam
2019-01-23 03:14:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by sms
Post by Rod Speed
There is actually. There is no physical home button anymore
so the best place to do the fingerprint sensor is now gone.
<https://bgr.com/2018/08/15/iphone-x-plus-release-date-soon-next-gen-touch-id-
after/>
At least two Chinese phone makers have already done something similar
using technology from Synaptics.
except that it's slow and doesn't work particularly well.

you're clearly trolling.
Post by sms
Post by Rod Speed
Post by sms
There's also the issue of security. All the experts agree that a
fingerprint is far more secure.
No they don¹t on the question of false positives
with the best facial recognition with iphones.
False positives are the big problem because Face ID is much less secure,
nope. face id is much *more* secure, statistically 20x more secure.

you're clearly trolling.
Post by sms
but false negatives are also an annoying problem.
nope. people have five attempts until a passcode is required, and face
id learns so the number of false negatives goes *down* with use.

you're clearly trolling.
Post by sms
<https://www.bayometric.com/fingerprint-vs-facial-recognition/>
not a credible link for many reasons.

you're clearly trolling.
Post by sms
<https://slate.com/technology/2018/07/iphone-face-id-struggles-to-recognize-pe
ople-in-the-morning.html>
Several iPhone X­owning Twitter users...

that many? several, out of a couple hundred million iphones with face
id, is nothing. not at all credible and nothing more than link bait.

you're clearly trolling.
Post by sms
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Lewis
2019-01-23 08:35:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by sms
False positives are the big problem because Face ID is much less secure,
This is a lie.
--
'Charity ain't giving people what you wants to give, it's giving people
what they need to get.'
nospam
2019-01-23 13:29:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by sms
False positives are the big problem because Face ID is much less secure,
This is a lie.
yep, as is the rest of his crap.
Rod Speed
2019-01-23 20:44:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by sms
Post by Rod Speed
Post by sms
No reason not to have multiple options, Face recognition, iris scan, and
fingerprint.
There is actually. There is no physical home button anymore
so the best place to do the fingerprint sensor is now gone.
<https://bgr.com/2018/08/15/iphone-x-plus-release-date-soon-next-gen-touch-id-after/>
At least two Chinese phone makers have already done something similar
using technology from Synaptics.
Pity there is no secure enclave for it anymore
so anyone can steal your fingerprints. No thanks.
Post by sms
Post by Rod Speed
Post by sms
There's also the issue of security. All the experts agree that a
fingerprint is far more secure.
No they don’t on the question of false positives
with the best facial recognition with iphones.
False positives are the big problem because Face ID is much less secure,
Depends on what sort of secure you are talking about.
Post by sms
but false negatives are also an annoying problem.
Sure, but there arent enough of those to matter with iphone facial
recognition.
Post by sms
<https://www.bayometric.com/fingerprint-vs-facial-recognition/>
<https://slate.com/technology/2018/07/iphone-face-id-struggles-to-recognize-people-in-the-morning.html>
That’s bullshit with iphones. And if you routinely get
plastered and end up looking like a hag in the morning,
just register your early morning and normal face.
Rod Speed
2019-01-22 21:28:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by sms
that are upset about it. But decontenting is a way of life. Companies
try to determine how many, if any, product sales will be lost by
removing a feature and whether or not the cost savings that they gain
will offset the profit from the lost sales.
This is a dangerous practice because it cannot quantify loss of loyalty.
Remove the headphone jack on iPhone 7, sales still go up. So accountants
see no damage.
But add a few years and Apple notices sales go down and complains about
people keeping their 6s longer than they had expected.
Blaming only price is wrong. There is also the loss of touchID, and the
loss of headphone jack.
So it isn't so much comparing each year's model vs previous year, you
need to look at what whart phones people have which Apple expects people
will want to upgrade. And when that upgrade involves losses without anty
perceived gains, then sales go down.
So the jack may not be THE reason people with a 6s aren't keen to
upgrade, but it is a part of a set of reasons. And as you see Apple
remove features one by one, you lose loyalty to the product.
Only if there is an viable alternative instead.

More likely, like you did with touch ID, they just accept the fact
that they can't have it anymore and buy the iphone they can buy.
sms
2019-01-22 22:24:09 UTC
Permalink
On 1/22/2019 1:28 PM, Rod Speed wrote:

<snip>
Post by Rod Speed
Only if there is an viable alternative instead.
The viable alternatives are a) keep your old iPhone, b) buy a new iPhone
but one of the older models (6s, 6s Plus, SE), c) move to Android.

Users choosing a or b are the problem. Not many iPhone users would
choose c, they'd rather deal with a dongle, buy Lightning headphones, or
buy Bluetooth headphones.

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nospam
2019-01-22 23:29:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by sms
The viable alternatives are a) keep your old iPhone, b) buy a new iPhone
but one of the older models (6s, 6s Plus, SE), c) move to Android.
or d) not worry about it since isn't actually a problem.

the vast majority of people use the bundled headphones, bluetooth, or
no headphones at all.

the *only* group that's affected are those with headphones they wish to
continue using, and that group is very small.
Post by sms
Users choosing a or b are the problem. Not many iPhone users would
choose c, they'd rather deal with a dongle, buy Lightning headphones, or
buy Bluetooth headphones.
they aren't using the dongle (which is one reason why it's no longer
included) nor do they need to buy anything since there are headphones
in the box, included with the phone.

tl;dr non-issue
Post by sms
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fix that shit.
Rod Speed
2019-01-23 01:08:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by sms
Post by Rod Speed
Post by JF Mezei
So the jack may not be THE reason people with a 6s aren't keen to
upgrade, but it is a part of a set of reasons. And as you see Apple
remove features one by one, you lose loyalty to the product.
Only if there is an viable alternative instead.
The viable alternatives are a) keep your old iPhone,
Not viable over the long haul as JF discovered.
Post by sms
b) buy a new iPhone but one of the older models (6s, 6s Plus, SE),
Again, not viable if you need what the latest can do that those can't.
Post by sms
c) move to Android.
Not viable if you need the much better security that the iphone has.
Post by sms
Users choosing a or b are the problem.
Not a problem for apple.
Post by sms
Not many iPhone users would choose c, they'd rather
deal with a dongle, buy Lightning headphones, or
buy Bluetooth headphones.
And plenty like me never use plug in headphones
and have always had bluetooth headphones.
sms
2019-01-23 03:02:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rod Speed
Post by sms
The viable alternatives are a) keep your old iPhone,
Not viable over the long haul as JF discovered.
But unfortunately it's viable for a pretty long time thanks to Apple
being very good about long term OS support for older models and thanks
to the ability to get devices repaired inexpensively through third-party
companies.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by sms
b) buy a new iPhone but one of the older models (6s, 6s Plus, SE),
Again, not viable if you need what the latest can do that those can't.
True, if you want the better cameras, but besides that there is little
that the latest can do that the older models cannot do. The newer models
have a faster processor, but processor speed was never an issue on the
older models anyway.

The next big thing will be 5G support.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by sms
c) move to Android.
Not viable if you need the much better security that the iphone has.
Post by sms
Users choosing a or b are the problem.
Not a problem for apple.
Post by sms
Not many iPhone users would choose c, they'd rather deal with a
dongle, buy Lightning headphones, or buy Bluetooth headphones.
And plenty like me never use plug in headphones
and have always had bluetooth headphones.
The stats show that you are in a definite minority.


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nospam
2019-01-23 03:14:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by sms
The next big thing will be 5G support.
no it won't. 5g isn't going to matter for a few years (wide deployment
is going to take quite a while ) and even then, it won't matter that
much because few people currently saturate their existing lte link.
Post by sms
Post by Rod Speed
And plenty like me never use plug in headphones
and have always had bluetooth headphones.
The stats show that you are in a definite minority.
nope. bluetooth headphones are *very* common.

nearly everyone uses the bundled headphones, bluetooth headphones or
the built in speakers.
Post by sms
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fix that shit.
Rod Speed
2019-01-23 20:51:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rod Speed
Post by sms
The viable alternatives are a) keep your old iPhone,
Not viable over the long haul as JF discovered.
But unfortunately it's viable for a pretty long time thanks to Apple being
very good about long term OS support for older models and thanks to the
ability to get devices repaired inexpensively through third-party
companies.
I wasn’t talking about OS support or repair, the lack of the new
stuff like facial recognition, inductive charging and soon 5G.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by sms
b) buy a new iPhone but one of the older models (6s, 6s Plus, SE),
Again, not viable if you need what the latest can do that those can't.
True, if you want the better cameras, but besides that there is little
that the latest can do that the older models cannot do.
That’s bullshit with facial recognition, inductive charging, 5G etc.

I replaced my 5 with a 6S because the 5 couldn’t do applepay and
cant do 4G here because it doesn’t have the band used for that here.
The newer models have a faster processor, but processor speed was never an
issue on the older models anyway.
That never is wrong. The difference between the 5 and 6S is very obvious.
The next big thing will be 5G support.
Yes, and so sticking with the previous iphone means you cant do it.
Post by Rod Speed
Post by sms
c) move to Android.
Not viable if you need the much better security that the iphone has.
Post by sms
Users choosing a or b are the problem.
Not a problem for apple.
Post by sms
Not many iPhone users would choose c, they'd rather deal with a dongle,
buy Lightning headphones, or buy Bluetooth headphones.
And plenty like me never use plug in headphones
and have always had bluetooth headphones.
The stats show that you are in a definite minority.
Sure, but still plenty where your 3 alts just arent viable.
Your Name
2019-01-21 00:36:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
no it isn't. there isn't any space underneath the display for an analog
headphone jack and headphones can be used with the lightning (iphone)
Fact: iPhone 4 was much smaller, and narrower. It had space for both the
analogue headphone jack AND a very large 30 pin USB/etc connector.
And a smaller battery, and a smaller camera, and smaller less powerful
chips, and ... :-\
sms
2019-01-20 21:28:33 UTC
Permalink
On 1/19/2019 5:26 PM, JF Mezei wrote:

<snip>
Post by JF Mezei
Statistics. Because wired ones come with the phone, people don't buy
them separately so sales of such headphones are low.
The last study on this showed Bluetooth headphones generating 54% of the
revenue but only 17% of the unit sales. It's likely improved somewhat
for Bluetooth volumes, but in no way have the volumes flipped in favor
of Bluetooth.

But as you stated, sales volumes don't tell the whole story since most
higher end phones come with wired earbuds.
nospam
2019-01-20 21:38:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by sms
The last study on this showed Bluetooth headphones generating 54% of the
revenue but only 17% of the unit sales. It's likely improved somewhat
for Bluetooth volumes, but in no way have the volumes flipped in favor
of Bluetooth.
the bulk of the unit sales are cheapos, which break and are replaced
with another cheapo. that can't be compared to quality wired or
wireless headphones.

also affecting the numbers are businesses which buy cheapos in bulk to
give away, such as the free set they hand out on airplanes.
Post by sms
But as you stated, sales volumes don't tell the whole story since most
higher end phones come with wired earbuds.
which is why it doesn't matter.
arlen holder
2019-01-20 05:45:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
is also far more reliable and anything an analog headphone could
possible do.
*Make sure you bring batteries (or a charger) everywhere you go.*

You have an oddly strange concept of reliable, nospam.
Very strange.

Maybe Apple MARKETING fed you your information, perhaps?
(You know ... in those 3rd-grade marketing messages you soak up.)

HINT: They're far _less_ reliable by *any* definition of the concept.

Only in nospam's world of simple MARKETING 3rd-grade messaging is
a simple time-honored standard wired device _less_ reliable than one that
constantly REQUIRES battery power which will enevitably run down in just
mere tens to scores of hours of use (if even that) and which eventually
require constant replacement over the years.

*Something _that_ unreliable, is nospam's concept of R-E-L-I-A-B-L-E*
arlen holder
2019-01-20 05:33:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
With regards to the headphone jack, with the move to larger screens, I
have to wonder if the "real estate" is still so restrictive that it has
no room for the headphoe jack.
Hi J.F. Mezei,

I don't consider you an Apologist, so we can discuss things differently.
More like adults discuss things.

You know, things that have "innuendo" involved.
In addition to the facts.

Given a bit of "common sense" is involved in comprehension here...
*Do you _really_ think the rationale Apple MARKETING provided is true?*

Really?
HINT: Nobody else does.

DOUBLEHINT: Apple provides "MESSAGES" at a third-grade level.
That's TYPICAL of MARKETING messaging.
It's a proven system that certain sponge brains absorb perfectly.

But you ... You J.F. Mezei... you have to think a bit about the MARKETING.
Do you _really_ think the headphone jack was removed due to space?

Really?
(HINT: It's NOT the reason.)

DOUBLEHINT: The reason has been reported as it's obvious the reason.
Post by JF Mezei
There are logistical issues with external card because of the type of
encryption done on the iPhone which is specific to each phone (so card
couldn't be read/written to from a different device unless its
encryption is different and weaker because the user would have to know
its key.
Hi J.F. Mezei,

It's hard to make an airplane fly but people figured out how.
You know why?
Because it's _useful_ to have an airplane fly.

External SD Cards are also very useful to have.

The reason Apple doesn't allow external storage is NOT because
of encryption issues. It's just not.

HINT: Essentially, it's similar to why the headphone jack disappeared.
DOUBLEHINT: The reason has been reported as it's obvious the reason.
arlen holder
2019-01-20 05:45:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by arlen holder
Do you _really_ think the headphone jack was removed due to space?
The good news is that I just read your responses to nospam's idiocy,
where it appears that you _do_ have an adult mind.

Space was _never_ the reason for the removal of basic functionality.

Sure, nospam will insist it was - but when is he ever right?
(All he does is spout the same 3rd-grade messaging that MARKETING does.)

Sometimes, I wonder if he's not paid to spout Apple MARKETING mantra.

Nonetheless, I am heartened to see that you, J.F. Mezei, possess the
mind of a normal rational adult (unlike nospam).
sms
2019-01-20 16:03:52 UTC
Permalink
On 1/19/2019 9:45 PM, arlen holder wrote:

<snip>
Post by arlen holder
Space was _never_ the reason for the removal of basic functionality.
Space was one of the reasons. iFixit has an article about this:
<https://9to5mac.com/2016/09/15/ifixit-teardown-reveals-exactly-what-replaced-the-iphone-7s-headphone-jack/>

There were many reasons for the removal:

1. It is more difficult and expensive to achieve IP68 with the headphone
jack. Not impossible, but more difficult and expensive.

2. Removing the headphone jack reduces warranty and out of warranty
repair costs, both because of less water damage and because broken or
failing headphone jacks were one of the biggest sources of warranty (and
out of warranty) repairs.

3. Removing the headphone jack reduces manufacturing costs, though only
by a few cents (and for a while Apple was including a Lightning to 3.5mm
adapter which certainly cost them more than they ever saved).

4. There are no royalties on devices that plug into a headphone jack.
With the Lightning connector the accessory manufacturer must sign up to
the MFi program and pay royalties. And remember, there are many devices
that use the headphone jack, not just headphones. See
<https://www.forbes.com/sites/theopriestley/2016/01/11/apple-ditching-the-headphone-jack-is-less-about-music-more-about-royalties/#c05682e62974>.

5. Space.

6. Removing the jack encourages the use of Bluetooth headphones,
hopefully the ones sold by Apple. Anyone still using wired headphones is
standing in the way of human progress (sarcasm). Personally, I prefer
wired earbuds and headsets because I don't want more stuff to have to
keep charged. I even still use a wired mouse at home.

7. They charge $9 for the Lightning to analog dongle now
<https://www.engadget.com/2018/09/12/apple-iphone-no-headphone-adapter/>

8. Philosophy. Minimizing the number of ports, and the number of
different ports, simplifies devices, along with providing the benefits
of reduced manufacturing cost, reduced warranty repairs, reduced
customer service, reduced size, reduced weight, and increased revenue.
Those that still need the functionality that is removed have ways to
gain it back through the use of external dongles.

9. It showed courage
<https://www.theverge.com/2016/9/7/12838024/apple-iphone-7-plus-headphone-jack-removal-courage>.

So space was ONE of the reasons. Space is at a premium inside a smart
phone. But it was certainly not the only reason.

Obviously they must have predicted how many sales they would lose by the
headphone jack's removal and concluded that the lost sales would be
minimal and that most buyers would be satisfied with the free dongle.
The removal of the headphone jack also resulted in a huge increase in
Bluetooth headphone sales with resulting price drops. But no more dollar
store $1 junky earbuds.
nospam
2019-01-20 16:31:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by sms
6. Removing the jack encourages the use of Bluetooth headphones,
hopefully the ones sold by Apple. Anyone still using wired headphones is
standing in the way of human progress (sarcasm).
wireless is the future.
Post by sms
Personally, I prefer
wired earbuds and headsets because I don't want more stuff to have to
keep charged. I even still use a wired mouse at home.
then use the headphones that are included in the box. that's what
they're for.

bluetooth is *optional* for those who want to use it and battery life
is not in any way an issue. no more tangled cords or getting caught in
something pulling either or both buds out of the ears.
Post by sms
Obviously they must have predicted how many sales they would lose by the
headphone jack's removal and concluded that the lost sales would be
minimal and that most buyers would be satisfied with the free dongle.
obviously you're wrong yet again.

sales went *up* and most people *didn't* use the dongle.

most users either used the headphones in the box or bluetooth
headphones.

the dongle is only needed for those who already have fancy headphones
and want to keep using them. not many users fall into that category.
relatively few, actually.
Post by sms
The removal of the headphone jack also resulted in a huge increase in
Bluetooth headphone sales with resulting price drops.
no it definitely didn't. as usual, you have things backwards.

bluetooth headphones were outselling wired headphones *before* apple
dropped the analog headphone jack and one of several reasons why it was
dropped.
Post by sms
But no more dollar
store $1 junky earbuds.
those still work with an adapter, not that anyone would want to.
arlen holder
2019-01-21 22:19:25 UTC
Permalink
Hi sms,
Wow.
Just wow.

That was a *fantastic* post!
o Logical
o Factual

You post as an adult would post, sms.
that is, you're the _opposite_ of the Apple Apologists!

Not only didn't you blame Android for every bad decision from Apple,
but you gave logical _reasons_ and reliable cites for your statements!

There's a very good reason that the argument from Apple was that it was a
"courageous" move to eliminate basic functionality, in effect, from the
user's hands.

It puts far more "control" into the hands of Apple (and the pocket).

That was a VERY GOOD post, sms, for which nospam's response is classic.
"wireless is the future"

That's _all_ nospam can say in response to well-verified well-cited facts.
:)
--
Post by arlen holder
Space was _never_ the reason for the removal of basic functionality.
Space was one of the reasons. iFixit has an article about this:
<https://9to5mac.com/2016/09/15/ifixit-teardown-reveals-exactly-what-replaced-the-iphone-7s-headphone-jack/>

There were many reasons for the removal:

1. It is more difficult and expensive to achieve IP68 with the headphone
jack. Not impossible, but more difficult and expensive.

2. Removing the headphone jack reduces warranty and out of warranty
repair costs, both because of less water damage and because broken or
failing headphone jacks were one of the biggest sources of warranty (and
out of warranty) repairs.

3. Removing the headphone jack reduces manufacturing costs, though only
by a few cents (and for a while Apple was including a Lightning to 3.5mm
adapter which certainly cost them more than they ever saved).

4. There are no royalties on devices that plug into a headphone jack.
With the Lightning connector the accessory manufacturer must sign up to
the MFi program and pay royalties. And remember, there are many devices
that use the headphone jack, not just headphones. See
<https://www.forbes.com/sites/theopriestley/2016/01/11/apple-ditching-the-headphone-jack-is-less-about-music-more-about-royalties/#c05682e62974>.

5. Space.

6. Removing the jack encourages the use of Bluetooth headphones,
hopefully the ones sold by Apple. Anyone still using wired headphones is
standing in the way of human progress (sarcasm). Personally, I prefer
wired earbuds and headsets because I don't want more stuff to have to
keep charged. I even still use a wired mouse at home.

7. They charge $9 for the Lightning to analog dongle now
<https://www.engadget.com/2018/09/12/apple-iphone-no-headphone-adapter/>

8. Philosophy. Minimizing the number of ports, and the number of
different ports, simplifies devices, along with providing the benefits
of reduced manufacturing cost, reduced warranty repairs, reduced
customer service, reduced size, reduced weight, and increased revenue.
Those that still need the functionality that is removed have ways to
gain it back through the use of external dongles.

9. It showed courage
<https://www.theverge.com/2016/9/7/12838024/apple-iphone-7-plus-headphone-jack-removal-courage>.

So space was ONE of the reasons. Space is at a premium inside a smart
phone. But it was certainly not the only reason.

Obviously they must have predicted how many sales they would lose by the
headphone jack's removal and concluded that the lost sales would be
minimal and that most buyers would be satisfied with the free dongle.
The removal of the headphone jack also resulted in a huge increase in
Bluetooth headphone sales with resulting price drops. But no more dollar
store $1 junky earbuds.
arlen holder
2019-02-11 16:45:53 UTC
Permalink
New iPhones to stick with Lightning over USB-C
"You¢ll also still get the same 5W USB-A charger in the box"
<https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/11/18220063/iphone-2019-lightning-usb-c-5w-usb-a-power-adapter>

"Once again you¢ll need to buy a _separate_ USB-C to Lightning
cable and a power brick that supports USB-C Power Delivery
if you want to be able to fast-charge your $1,000 iPhone"

"Apple has offered fast-charging in its phones since 2017s
iPhone 8, but has never included the hardware needed for
it in the box, even as its devices have crept beyond the $1,000 mark."

"it¢s a practice that¢s increasingly outdated"

I posit it is yet another brilliant marketing move from Apple:
o Get them to pay $1,500 for the phone, and then
o Get them to buy a cable to fast charge that $,1500 iPhone
o Get them to also buy a fast charger to fast charge that $1,500 iPhone

It's Brilliant Apple Marketing 101

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