Discussion:
Apple Addresses Privacy Questions About 'Hey Siri'
(too old to reply)
Jolly Roger
2019-07-27 20:41:23 UTC
Permalink
<https://techcrunch.com/2015/09/11/apple-addresses-privacy-questions-about-hey-siri-and-live-photo-features/>

Being able to say the phrase at any time to activate Siri is convenient,
but raises some questions about what Apple means by 'listening' and
whether any of that stuff is recorded.

Hey Siri is an optional feature that is enabled by an opt-in step in iOS
9's setup. You can choose never to enable it. If you do enable it,
nothing is ever recorded in any way before the feature is triggered.

"In no case is the device recording what the user says or sending that
information to Apple before the feature is triggered," says Apple.

Instead, audio from the microphone is continuously compared against the
model, or pattern, of your personal way of saying 'Hey Siri' that you
recorded during setup of the feature. Hey Siri requires a match to both
the 'general' Hey Siri model (how your iPhone thinks the words sound)
and the 'personalized' model of how you say it. This is to prevent other
people's voices from triggering your phone's Hey Siri feature by
accident.

Until that match happens, no audio is ever sent off of your iPhone. All
of that listening and processing happens locally.

"The 'listening' audio, which will be continuously overwritten, will be
used to improve Siri's response time in instances where the user
activates Siri," says Apple. The keyword there being 'activates Siri.'
Until you activate it, the patterns are matched locally, and the buffer
of sound being monitored (from what I understand, just a few seconds) is
being erased, un-sent and un-used -- and unable to be retrieved at any
point in the future.

Of course, as has always been the case with Siri, once a match is made
and a Siri command is sent off to Apple, it's associated with your
device using a random identifier, not your Apple ID or another
personalized piece of info. That information is then 'approved' for use
in improving the service, because you've made an explicit choice to ask
Apple's remote servers to answer a query.

"If a user chooses to turn off Siri, Apple will delete the User Data
associated with the user's Siri identifier, and the learning process
will start all over again," says Apple.

Meanwhile, at Amazon and others...

<https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-10/is-anyone-listening-to-you-on-alexa-a-global-team-reviews-audio>

Amazon Workers Are Listening to What You Tell Alexa

A screenshot reviewed by Bloomberg shows that the recordings sent to the
Alexa reviewers don't provide a user's full name and address but are
associated with an account number, as well as the user's first name and
the device's serial number.

Occasionally the listeners pick up things Echo owners likely would
rather stay private: a woman singing badly off key in the shower, say,
or a child screaming for help. The teams use internal chat rooms to
share files when they need help parsing a muddled word--or come across
an amusing recording.

<https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-6910791/Alexa-listening-conversations.html>

Alexa IS listening to your conversations: Web giant ADMITS clips are
analysed by Amazon workers - including your most intimate moments

<https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-6956531/Amazon-employees-listening-Alexa-recordings-customers-live.html>

Amazon employees listening to your Alexa recordings can also easily find
customers' home addresses, report claims
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Arlen G. Holder
2019-07-27 22:19:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
Meanwhile, at Amazon and others...
*It's classic that Apologists blame everyone but Apple for Apple's mistakes!*
o What are the common well-verified psychological traits of the Apple Apologists on this newsgroup?
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/18ARDsEOPzM/veU8FwAjBQAJ>

The FACTS about PRIVACY are what matter:
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/ia3wMAwiD74>
"That's a particularly bad look, given that Apple has built so much of
its reputation on selling itself as the privacy company that defends your
data in ways that Google and Amazon don't. Implicitly telling customers
that, effectively, 'the only way to have peace of mind that a random
stranger won't listen in on their accidentally triggered Siri recordings is
to stop using Siri entirely' is a bit of a mixed message from the company
that supposedly puts privacy at a premium."

o Workers hear drug deals, medical details and people having sex, says whistleblower
<https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jul/26/apple-contractors-regularly-hear-confidential-details-on-siri-recordings>
Alan Baker
2019-07-28 05:54:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arlen G. Holder
Post by Jolly Roger
Meanwhile, at Amazon and others...
*It's classic that Apologists blame everyone but Apple for Apple's mistakes!*
Literally no one had done that in this thread when you replied with this.

You're just a liar now.
Arlen G. Holder
2019-07-28 15:19:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Baker
Literally no one had done that in this thread when you replied with this.
Hi Alan Baker,

Please put your brain in gear - even though you (and JR) are apologists:
o HINT: Apple _advertises_ the (mere illusion of) privacy.

And yet, you dispute even the basic facts - like all apologists do.
o Sans a single logical argument - you just dispute what you don't like.

What _are_ you disputing, Alan Baker?

1. Are you disputing the private recordings are listened to by contractors?
(i.e., the news says these are recordings listened to by people)

2. Or, are you disputing that Jolly Roger's quotes were misleading?
(i.e., "continuously overwritten" is bullshit - these are recordings!)
(i.e., "random identifier" is bullshit - it has your exact location!)

3. Or, are you disputing that Jolly Roger "blamed Amazon/Google"?
(i.e., JR wrote "Amazon Workers Are Listening to What You Tell Alexa")
(i.e., JR wrote "Amazon employees... easily find...home addresses"

If you apologists can ever put your brain in gear, then tell me, which of
those statements above by JR are you attempting to dispute, Alan Baker?

1. Apple is providing these private RECORDINGS daily to contractors!
2. Apple is providing precise LOCATION & time with those recordings!
3. Apple can't blame Amazon for Apple's privacy flaws! (much as JR tries).
--
Post by Alan Baker
<https://techcrunch.com/2015/09/11/apple-addresses-privacy-questions-about-hey-siri-and-live-photo-features/>
Being able to say the phrase at any time to activate Siri is convenient,
but raises some questions about what Apple means by 'listening' and
whether any of that stuff is recorded.
Hey Siri is an optional feature that is enabled by an opt-in step in iOS
9's setup. You can choose never to enable it. If you do enable it,
nothing is ever recorded in any way before the feature is triggered.
"In no case is the device recording what the user says or sending that
information to Apple before the feature is triggered," says Apple.
Instead, audio from the microphone is continuously compared against the
model, or pattern, of your personal way of saying 'Hey Siri' that you
recorded during setup of the feature. Hey Siri requires a match to both
the 'general' Hey Siri model (how your iPhone thinks the words sound)
and the 'personalized' model of how you say it. This is to prevent other
people's voices from triggering your phone's Hey Siri feature by
accident.
Until that match happens, no audio is ever sent off of your iPhone. All
of that listening and processing happens locally.
"The 'listening' audio, which will be continuously overwritten, will be
used to improve Siri's response time in instances where the user
activates Siri," says Apple. The keyword there being 'activates Siri.'
Until you activate it, the patterns are matched locally, and the buffer
of sound being monitored (from what I understand, just a few seconds) is
being erased, un-sent and un-used -- and unable to be retrieved at any
point in the future.
Of course, as has always been the case with Siri, once a match is made
and a Siri command is sent off to Apple, it's associated with your
device using a random identifier, not your Apple ID or another
personalized piece of info. That information is then 'approved' for use
in improving the service, because you've made an explicit choice to ask
Apple's remote servers to answer a query.
"If a user chooses to turn off Siri, Apple will delete the User Data
associated with the user's Siri identifier, and the learning process
will start all over again," says Apple.
Meanwhile, at Amazon and others...
<https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-10/is-anyone-listening-to-you-on-alexa-a-global-team-reviews-audio>
Amazon Workers Are Listening to What You Tell Alexa
A screenshot reviewed by Bloomberg shows that the recordings sent to the
Alexa reviewers don't provide a user's full name and address but are
associated with an account number, as well as the user's first name and
the device's serial number.
Occasionally the listeners pick up things Echo owners likely would
rather stay private: a woman singing badly off key in the shower, say,
or a child screaming for help. The teams use internal chat rooms to
share files when they need help parsing a muddled word--or come across
an amusing recording.
<https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-6910791/Alexa-listening-conversations.html>
Alexa IS listening to your conversations: Web giant ADMITS clips are
analysed by Amazon workers - including your most intimate moments
<https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-6956531/Amazon-employees-listening-Alexa-recordings-customers-live.html>
Amazon employees listening to your Alexa recordings can also easily find
customers' home addresses, report claims
Alan Baker
2019-07-29 18:02:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arlen G. Holder
Post by Alan Baker
Literally no one had done that in this thread when you replied with this.
Hi Alan Baker,
It was and I'm right.
Post by Arlen G. Holder
o HINT: Apple _advertises_ the (mere illusion of) privacy.
Which (and I'm not addressing the truth or falsehood of that claim) has
nothing to do with your claim that:

'*It's classic that Apologists blame everyone but Apple for Apple's
mistakes!*'

No one had done that in this thread. To my current knowledge, no one has
done it by now, either.

In fact, you have never actually shown anyone EVER doing that.
Post by Arlen G. Holder
And yet, you dispute even the basic facts - like all apologists do.
o Sans a single logical argument - you just dispute what you don't like.
What _are_ you disputing, Alan Baker?
1. Are you disputing the private recordings are listened to by contractors?
(i.e., the news says these are recordings listened to by people)
Nope.
Post by Arlen G. Holder
2. Or, are you disputing that Jolly Roger's quotes were misleading?
(i.e., "continuously overwritten" is bullshit - these are recordings!)
(i.e., "random identifier" is bullshit - it has your exact location!)
So? What good is it to anyone to have my location without my identity?
Post by Arlen G. Holder
3. Or, are you disputing that Jolly Roger "blamed Amazon/Google"?
(i.e., JR wrote "Amazon Workers Are Listening to What You Tell Alexa")
(i.e., JR wrote "Amazon employees... easily find...home addresses"
Yup.

Neither of those is:

'blam[ing] everyone but Apple for Apple's mistakes!'

Pointing out that others do it to is about YOU and who YOU choose to
talk about.
Post by Arlen G. Holder
If you apologists can ever put your brain in gear, then tell me, which of
those statements above by JR are you attempting to dispute, Alan Baker?
1. Apple is providing these private RECORDINGS daily to contractors!
Yup.
Post by Arlen G. Holder
2. Apple is providing precise LOCATION & time with those recordings!
OK..
Post by Arlen G. Holder
3. Apple can't blame Amazon for Apple's privacy flaws! (much as JR tries).
JR didn't try to do that.

It just didn't happen.
Rod Speed
2019-07-28 05:29:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
<https://techcrunch.com/2015/09/11/apple-addresses-privacy-questions-about-hey-siri-and-live-photo-features/>
Being able to say the phrase at any time to activate Siri is convenient,
but raises some questions about what Apple means by 'listening' and
whether any of that stuff is recorded.
Hey Siri is an optional feature that is enabled by an opt-in step in iOS
9's setup. You can choose never to enable it. If you do enable it,
nothing is ever recorded in any way before the feature is triggered.
"In no case is the device recording what the user says or sending that
information to Apple before the feature is triggered," says Apple.
Instead, audio from the microphone is continuously compared against
the model, or pattern, of your personal way of saying 'Hey Siri' that you
recorded during setup of the feature. Hey Siri requires a match to both
the 'general' Hey Siri model (how your iPhone thinks the words sound)
and the 'personalized' model of how you say it. This is to prevent other
people's voices from triggering your phone's Hey Siri feature by accident.
And that’s better than stupid Alexa. Hilarious watching a youtube
video about Alexa and having your echo stupidly responding to it.
Post by Jolly Roger
Until that match happens, no audio is ever sent off of your iPhone. All
of that listening and processing happens locally.
"The 'listening' audio, which will be continuously overwritten, will be
used to improve Siri's response time in instances where the user
activates Siri," says Apple. The keyword there being 'activates Siri.'
Until you activate it, the patterns are matched locally, and the buffer
of sound being monitored (from what I understand, just a few seconds) is
being erased, un-sent and un-used -- and unable to be retrieved at any
point in the future.
Of course, as has always been the case with Siri, once a match is made
and a Siri command is sent off to Apple, it's associated with your
device using a random identifier, not your Apple ID or another
personalized piece of info. That information is then 'approved' for use
in improving the service, because you've made an explicit choice to ask
Apple's remote servers to answer a query.
"If a user chooses to turn off Siri, Apple will delete the User Data
associated with the user's Siri identifier, and the learning process
will start all over again," says Apple.
Meanwhile, at Amazon and others...
<https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-10/is-anyone-listening-to-you-on-alexa-a-global-team-reviews-audio>
Amazon Workers Are Listening to What You Tell Alexa
A screenshot reviewed by Bloomberg shows that the recordings sent to the
Alexa reviewers don't provide a user's full name and address but are
associated with an account number, as well as the user's first name and
the device's serial number.
Occasionally the listeners pick up things Echo owners likely would
rather stay private: a woman singing badly off key in the shower, say,
or a child screaming for help. The teams use internal chat rooms to
share files when they need help parsing a muddled word--or come across
an amusing recording.
<https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-6910791/Alexa-listening-conversations.html>
Alexa IS listening to your conversations: Web giant ADMITS clips are
analysed by Amazon workers - including your most intimate moments
<https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-6956531/Amazon-employees-listening-Alexa-recordings-customers-live.html>
Amazon employees listening to your Alexa recordings can also easily find
customers' home addresses, report claims
Arlen G. Holder
2019-07-28 15:27:10 UTC
Permalink
And that¢s better than stupid Alexa. Hilarious watching a youtube
video about Alexa and having your echo stupidly responding to it.
Hi Rod Speed,

We generally ignore each other because we're in different leagues, where I
respond directly to your post - but my response is for the intelligent few
out there - if any - on these newsgroups (since I'm very well informed).

_The problem is simple & basic to what Apple & Apple Apologists always do._

APPLE MARKETING:
o *The main problem is that Apple _ADVERTISES_ privacy!*

APPLE APOLOGISTS:
o *The main problem is that Apologists always _BLAME_ anyone but Apple!*

Jolly Roger's post literally screams both those abject facts.
o It's a simple 3 step process that _always_ happens

Why does this 3 step process _always_ happen?
1. Because Apple ADVERTISES privacy - and the Apologists _believe_ it.
2. When Apple is found out to be no more private than anyone else...
3. The Apologists constantly make excuses - and blame everyone but Apple.

Fundamentally, two things are happening, which I'm pointing out:
A. The apologists own a completely imaginary belief system
B. Which, when destroyed by simple facts - they blame everyone but Apple.

It happens every time their imaginary belief system is destroyed by facts.
Alan Baker
2019-07-29 17:58:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arlen G. Holder
And that¢s better than stupid Alexa. Hilarious watching a youtube
video about Alexa and having your echo stupidly responding to it.
Hi Rod Speed,
We generally ignore each other because we're in different leagues, where I
respond directly to your post - but my response is for the intelligent few
out there - if any - on these newsgroups (since I'm very well informed).
_The problem is simple & basic to what Apple & Apple Apologists always do._
o *The main problem is that Apple _ADVERTISES_ privacy!*
The advertise BETTER privacy...

...and back that up by actually delivering better privacy than Google or
Amazon.
Post by Arlen G. Holder
o *The main problem is that Apologists always _BLAME_ anyone but Apple!*
You have literally never shown an actual case of that.
Post by Arlen G. Holder
Jolly Roger's post literally screams both those abject facts.
o It's a simple 3 step process that _always_ happens
Why does this 3 step process _always_ happen?
1. Because Apple ADVERTISES privacy - and the Apologists _believe_ it.
2. When Apple is found out to be no more private than anyone else...
3. The Apologists constantly make excuses - and blame everyone but Apple.
A. The apologists own a completely imaginary belief system
B. Which, when destroyed by simple facts - they blame everyone but Apple.
It happens every time their imaginary belief system is destroyed by facts.
Arlen G. Holder
2019-07-31 07:19:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Baker
The advertise BETTER privacy...
You gotta be kidding Alan Baker?
o Do you have any idea of the root password bugs, for example, in the Mac?
o Do you have any idea of video eavesdropping bugs, for example, on iOS?
Post by Alan Baker
...and back that up by actually delivering better privacy than Google or
Amazon.
The fact is that the privacy is "about the same".
o It's only the vast MARKETING by Apple that is different.

Apologists prove this themselves - since they blame everyone but Apple.

Example of the brilliant marketing of imaginary privacy here:
o As expected, Apple beginning to play up the imaginary privacy of iPhones
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/EfMlrgxWkvQ/d6lR8F-kBAAJ>
Post by Alan Baker
You have literally never shown an actual case of that.
Factual proof of the many Apple vulnerabilities are in this thread:
o What is the factual truth about PRIVACY differences or similarities between the Android & iOS mobile phone ecosystems?
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/MiZixhidmOs/ATC1S3s4FQAJ>
Alan Baker
2019-07-31 07:25:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arlen G. Holder
Post by Alan Baker
The advertise BETTER privacy...
You gotta be kidding Alan Baker?
o Do you have any idea of the root password bugs, for example, in the Mac?
I'm aware of it.
Post by Arlen G. Holder
o Do you have any idea of video eavesdropping bugs, for example, on iOS?
I'm aware of it.

Do you have any factual basis of comparison that shows that Apple's
offerings have more bugs than other companies' offerings?
Post by Arlen G. Holder
Post by Alan Baker
...and back that up by actually delivering better privacy than Google or
Amazon.
The fact is that the privacy is "about the same".
o It's only the vast MARKETING by Apple that is different.
That's NOT a fact. That is an ASSERTION.
Arlen G. Holder
2019-07-31 19:09:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Baker
Do you have any factual basis of comparison that shows that Apple's
offerings have more bugs than other companies' offerings?
Hehhehheh...

Do you realize you apologists _always_ prove my point for me?

The _only_ difference with Apple on the topic of privacy....
o *Is the marketing*

Your own blame excuse above proves you actually _know_ this.
Alan Baker
2019-07-31 19:36:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arlen G. Holder
Post by Alan Baker
Do you have any factual basis of comparison that shows that Apple's
offerings have more bugs than other companies' offerings?
Hehhehheh...
Do you realize you apologists _always_ prove my point for me?
Do you realize that asking a question doesn't prove anything?
Post by Arlen G. Holder
The _only_ difference with Apple on the topic of privacy....
o *Is the marketing*
You've literally never shown any evidence for that.
Post by Arlen G. Holder
Your own blame excuse above proves you actually _know_ this.
Arlen G. Holder
2019-08-01 07:08:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Baker
You've literally never shown any evidence for that.
Apple advertises that they have privacy over Android...
o But the fact is that they don't.

It's imaginary.
o Apple cherry picks what to advertise - but the overall picture is horrid

You just said it yourself, Alan Baker.
o Apple has huge and constant privacy and security holes
o Android has huge and constant privacy and security holes

The only thing different between them ... is the marketing.
o Admittedly, Apple has _brilliant_ marketing.
Alan Baker
2019-08-01 15:54:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arlen G. Holder
Post by Alan Baker
You've literally never shown any evidence for that.
Apple advertises that they have privacy over Android...
o But the fact is that they don't.
You calling it a fact doesn't make it a fact.
Post by Arlen G. Holder
It's imaginary.
o Apple cherry picks what to advertise - but the overall picture is horrid
Proof.
Post by Arlen G. Holder
You just said it yourself, Alan Baker.
o Apple has huge and constant privacy and security holes
o Android has huge and constant privacy and security holes
Those are general statements.

Show something.
Post by Arlen G. Holder
The only thing different between them ... is the marketing.
o Admittedly, Apple has _brilliant_ marketing.
Barry Margolin
2019-08-01 16:14:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Baker
Post by Arlen G. Holder
Post by Alan Baker
You've literally never shown any evidence for that.
Apple advertises that they have privacy over Android...
o But the fact is that they don't.
You calling it a fact doesn't make it a fact.
Post by Arlen G. Holder
It's imaginary.
o Apple cherry picks what to advertise - but the overall picture is horrid
Proof.
And even if true, so what? EVERY business cherry picks what to
advertise. And they don't talk about their flaws unless they're forced
to, such as when performing a recall or apoligizing for a breach that
has become public.
Post by Alan Baker
Post by Arlen G. Holder
You just said it yourself, Alan Baker.
o Apple has huge and constant privacy and security holes
o Android has huge and constant privacy and security holes
Those are general statements.
Show something.
"huge" is an exaggeration. There's practically no software that doesn't
have bugs and security holes, they're inevitable. Vendors do their best
to minimize them, but nothing is perfect. Security professionals never
talk about whether something is secure or insecure, there's just more or
less secure, and weighing cost of mitigation (which includes both
development costs, inconvenience to users, and impact on features)
versus benefit.

Of course, advertising isn't so nuanced. That's hardly unique to Apple,
or even the software industry.
--
Barry Margolin, ***@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***
Arlen G. Holder
2019-08-01 18:53:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Margolin
And even if true, so what? EVERY business cherry picks what to
advertise. And they don't talk about their flaws unless they're forced
to, such as when performing a recall or apoligizing for a breach that
has become public.
Hi Barry Margolin,

Wow. There _are_ intelligent adults on this newsgroup!
Thank you for existing!

You aren't known to be an apologist, so I can more intelligently respond to
you as an adult would, where I would expect you, as an adult, to comprehend
the main point, and the nuance involved - without playing the silly
childish games Apple Apologists always play.
o What are the common well-verified psychological traits of the Apple Apologists on this newsgroup?
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/18ARDsEOPzM/veU8FwAjBQAJ>

To your point, Barry,
1. EVERY business would LOVE to have Apple's MARKETING brilliance!
2. It's the job of marketing to _create_ imaginary belief systems.
3. Apple is the best (IMHO) at that sort of product differentiation.

We've all taken plenty of marketing classes in college where we know the
basics that product differentiation creates the path to increased profits.

This product differentiation doesn't have to be real
o It can be imagined

Why?

Because people pay for what they _perceive_ the product to be
o Not for what the product actually is.

Take as a simple well known example the product differentiation in the real
world of, oh, say, high-octane gasoline versus regular. As you are aware if
you're on the iOS newsgroups, at the pump, for the past 40 years, ever
since I took Organic Chemistry, I've been asking the person next to me,
innocently so, what's the difference.

As you can imagine, the few people who are honest with themselves & others
simply admit they don't know, and some who are intelligent actually know
the difference - but most - by far - hand me the bullshit that they were
fed by the marketing organizations.

After I tell them the difference, what's interesting is that, just like
here, some people are so childish that they brazenly retort that the
chemistry of 2,2,4-trimethylpentane versus hexane is "wrong" (much like the
Apple Apologists brazenly & consistently claim any and all facts about
Apple are wrong, ala nospam & Alan Baker).

Some people (very few) are inquisitive and confident enough to ask me what
the difference is between the fuels - but rarely do such people exist in
the real world - or on this newsgroup.

It's the same here, and everywhere - but with a twist since the Apple
apologists here not only hand us all the pure imaginary product
differentiation bullshit from Apple Marketing, but then those same Apple
apologists make _excuses_ when they are told almost _any_ fact about Apple,
such that _those very excuses_ prove the point for me that they actually
realize that Apple is no different than any other company in the end
analysis.

What's different is that Apple MARKETING is brilliant.
o Many people think Apple products are somehow (magically?) more functional.
Post by Barry Margolin
Post by Alan Baker
Post by Arlen G. Holder
You just said it yourself, Alan Baker.
o Apple has huge and constant privacy and security holes
o Android has huge and constant privacy and security holes
Those are general statements.
Show something.
"huge" is an exaggeration. There's practically no software that doesn't
have bugs and security holes, they're inevitable.
That's my entire point!
Post by Barry Margolin
Vendors do their best
to minimize them, but nothing is perfect.
Exactly.
o Those who think Apple products are somehow (magically?) more private, are
the ones most deluded by the (admittedly brilliant) Apple MARKETING spiel.
Post by Barry Margolin
Security professionals never
talk about whether something is secure or insecure, there's just more or
less secure, and weighing cost of mitigation (which includes both
development costs, inconvenience to users, and impact on features)
versus benefit.
I agree fully with your assessment.
o It's MARKETING's job to make you "think" the product is "more private"

Yet, the facts show that it's not.
Post by Barry Margolin
Of course, advertising isn't so nuanced. That's hardly unique to Apple,
or even the software industry.
What's hugely different about Apple is their marketing is BRILLIANT.
o What is the most brilliant marketing move Apple ever made?
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/wW-fu0jsvAU>

Basically, there are hoards of gullibles _thinking_ Apple is "more private"
o And yet, it's not.
o What is the factual truth about PRIVACY differences or similarities between the Android & iOS mobile phone ecosystems?
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/MiZixhidmOs[1-25]>

In summary, this is an adult conversation where we start with FACTS, and
then we put a weighting on those facts to come to a reasonable conclusion
where our belief system is _based_ on the facts - and not based purely on
the imaginary belief system that the (admittedly brilliant) MARKETING
organization feeds us.

Thank you for being one of the rare adult thinkers on this newsgroup.
Alan Baker
2019-08-01 19:15:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arlen G. Holder
Post by Barry Margolin
And even if true, so what? EVERY business cherry picks what to
advertise. And they don't talk about their flaws unless they're forced
to, such as when performing a recall or apoligizing for a breach that
has become public.
Hi Barry Margolin,
Wow. There _are_ intelligent adults on this newsgroup!
Thank you for existing!
You aren't known to be an apologist, so I can more intelligently respond to
you as an adult would, where I would expect you, as an adult, to comprehend
the main point, and the nuance involved - without playing the silly
childish games Apple Apologists always play.
o What are the common well-verified psychological traits of the Apple Apologists on this newsgroup?
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/18ARDsEOPzM/veU8FwAjBQAJ>
To your point, Barry,
1. EVERY business would LOVE to have Apple's MARKETING brilliance!
2. It's the job of marketing to _create_ imaginary belief systems.
3. Apple is the best (IMHO) at that sort of product differentiation.
We've all taken plenty of marketing classes in college where we know the
basics that product differentiation creates the path to increased profits.
This product differentiation doesn't have to be real
o It can be imagined
Why?
Because people pay for what they _perceive_ the product to be
o Not for what the product actually is.
Take as a simple well known example the product differentiation in the real
world of, oh, say, high-octane gasoline versus regular. As you are aware if
you're on the iOS newsgroups, at the pump, for the past 40 years, ever
since I took Organic Chemistry, I've been asking the person next to me,
innocently so, what's the difference.
As you can imagine, the few people who are honest with themselves & others
simply admit they don't know, and some who are intelligent actually know
the difference - but most - by far - hand me the bullshit that they were
fed by the marketing organizations.
After I tell them the difference, what's interesting is that, just like
here, some people are so childish that they brazenly retort that the
chemistry of 2,2,4-trimethylpentane versus hexane is "wrong" (much like the
Apple Apologists brazenly & consistently claim any and all facts about
Apple are wrong, ala nospam & Alan Baker).
Some people (very few) are inquisitive and confident enough to ask me what
the difference is between the fuels - but rarely do such people exist in
the real world - or on this newsgroup.
It's the same here, and everywhere - but with a twist since the Apple
apologists here not only hand us all the pure imaginary product
differentiation bullshit from Apple Marketing, but then those same Apple
apologists make _excuses_ when they are told almost _any_ fact about Apple,
such that _those very excuses_ prove the point for me that they actually
realize that Apple is no different than any other company in the end
analysis.
What's different is that Apple MARKETING is brilliant.
o Many people think Apple products are somehow (magically?) more functional.
Post by Barry Margolin
Post by Alan Baker
Post by Arlen G. Holder
You just said it yourself, Alan Baker.
o Apple has huge and constant privacy and security holes
o Android has huge and constant privacy and security holes
Those are general statements.
Show something.
"huge" is an exaggeration. There's practically no software that doesn't
have bugs and security holes, they're inevitable.
That's my entire point!
Post by Barry Margolin
Vendors do their best
to minimize them, but nothing is perfect.
Exactly.
o Those who think Apple products are somehow (magically?) more private, are
the ones most deluded by the (admittedly brilliant) Apple MARKETING spiel.
Is it your contention (look it up) that one can never find that one
company does something better than another?
Post by Arlen G. Holder
Post by Barry Margolin
Security professionals never
talk about whether something is secure or insecure, there's just more or
less secure, and weighing cost of mitigation (which includes both
development costs, inconvenience to users, and impact on features)
versus benefit.
I agree fully with your assessment.
o It's MARKETING's job to make you "think" the product is "more private"
Yet, the facts show that it's not.
You have presented no such facts.
Post by Arlen G. Holder
Basically, there are hoards of gullibles _thinking_ Apple is "more private"
o And yet, it's not.
An assertion, not a fact.
Post by Arlen G. Holder
o What is the factual truth about PRIVACY differences or similarities between the Android & iOS mobile phone ecosystems?
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/MiZixhidmOs[1-25]>
That is an entire Usenet thread, and in your initial post, you provide
but a single link to anything that might support your assertion...

...and that points to but a single point of privacy that is outside of
Apple's control.
Post by Arlen G. Holder
In summary, this is an adult conversation where we start with FACTS,
Not from you, it doesn't.

<snip>
Arlen G. Holder
2019-08-01 19:27:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Baker
That is an entire Usenet thread, and in your initial post, you provide
but a single link to anything that might support your assertion...
The difference between you, Alan Baker, and Barry Margolin, is astounding.
o You're one of the score of Apple Apologists ... he's an actual adult.
Alan Baker
2019-08-01 19:37:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arlen G. Holder
Post by Alan Baker
That is an entire Usenet thread, and in your initial post, you provide
but a single link to anything that might support your assertion...
The difference between you, Alan Baker, and Barry Margolin, is astounding.
I pointed out that what you cited doesn't deal with Apple's privacy
issues at all, "Arlen".

It is effectively a constant which can be taken out of any discussion of
the relative merits of Apple's privacy vs that of its competitors.

How's that? Adult enough for you?

You'll snip it out of your reply...

...just as you did the text I included that said essentially the same
thing in my previous post.
Barry Margolin
2019-08-02 16:13:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arlen G. Holder
To your point, Barry,
1. EVERY business would LOVE to have Apple's MARKETING brilliance!
2. It's the job of marketing to _create_ imaginary belief systems.
3. Apple is the best (IMHO) at that sort of product differentiation.
How about the tobacco industry, which for decades convinced millions of
people that a disgusting carcinogen was actually a healthy product, and
they went along with it?
--
Barry Margolin, ***@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***
Arlen G. Holder
2019-08-02 22:05:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Margolin
Post by Arlen G. Holder
To your point, Barry,
1. EVERY business would LOVE to have Apple's MARKETING brilliance!
2. It's the job of marketing to _create_ imaginary belief systems.
3. Apple is the best (IMHO) at that sort of product differentiation.
How about the tobacco industry, which for decades convinced millions of
people that a disgusting carcinogen was actually a healthy product, and
they went along with it?
Hi Barry,

You asked whether every business doesn't market what turns out to be
bullshit, and I agreed that it's marketing's job to create an imaginary
belief system such that customers are willing to pay more for less.

But on Usenet, we aren't playing that marketing bullshit game.
o We are supposed to be adults who can comprehend facts, Barry.

Not children who pine for whatever is advertised on TV (or in the media).

We can agree that Apple Marketing is GREAT at making customers pay more for
what the customers "think" is privacy - of that there is no doubt.
Barry Margolin
2019-08-02 23:20:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arlen G. Holder
Post by Barry Margolin
Post by Arlen G. Holder
To your point, Barry,
1. EVERY business would LOVE to have Apple's MARKETING brilliance!
2. It's the job of marketing to _create_ imaginary belief systems.
3. Apple is the best (IMHO) at that sort of product differentiation.
How about the tobacco industry, which for decades convinced millions of
people that a disgusting carcinogen was actually a healthy product, and
they went along with it?
Hi Barry,
You asked whether every business doesn't market what turns out to be
bullshit, and I agreed that it's marketing's job to create an imaginary
belief system such that customers are willing to pay more for less.
But on Usenet, we aren't playing that marketing bullshit game.
o We are supposed to be adults who can comprehend facts, Barry.
Not children who pine for whatever is advertised on TV (or in the media).
We can agree that Apple Marketing is GREAT at making customers pay more for
what the customers "think" is privacy - of that there is no doubt.
I never said I take Apple's marketing as gospel. But I don't demonize a
company for doing it -- it's what I expect of a successful business.

Apple is at worst exaggerating their security, not out-and-out lying
like the tobacco industry did.
--
Barry Margolin, ***@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***
Jolly Roger
2019-08-03 02:58:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Margolin
Post by Arlen G. Holder
We can agree that Apple Marketing is GREAT at making customers pay
more for what the customers "think" is privacy - of that there is no
doubt.
I never said I take Apple's marketing as gospel. But I don't demonize
a company for doing it -- it's what I expect of a successful business.
Apple is at worst exaggerating their security, not out-and-out lying
like the tobacco industry did.
That doesn't support the delusion "Arlen" is selling though. So clearly
it's not ""factual"".
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Arlen G. Holder
2019-08-03 04:38:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
That doesn't support the delusion "Arlen" is selling though. So clearly
it's not ""factual"".
Hi Jolly Roger,

I _love_ when you post because you own the mind of the average iOS user
o Hence I learn how the average iOS user thinks - from what you post

I provided in the reference _many_ facts that proved
o Apple products are no more private than anyone else's products

I realize this is a balanced view which you don't hold, Jolly Roger
o I realize full well that you believe in the mere _illusion_ of privacy.

Notice though, that this Siri issue proves that illusion is imaginary.
o And yet you, the epitome of the average iOS user - can't comprehend that.
Arlen G. Holder
2019-08-03 04:27:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Margolin
I never said I take Apple's marketing as gospel. But I don't demonize a
company for doing it -- it's what I expect of a successful business.
Apple is at worst exaggerating their security, not out-and-out lying
like the tobacco industry did.
Hi Barry,

I'm very (very) well educated & well informed so I know what Apple does
o And I know what the tobacco industry did

Likewise, I own Apple & Android devices
o And I've owned them all for many years, Barry.

So I know what they do and what they don't do, Barry.
o I can handle facts that would make apologists' heads explode, Barry.

One thing that _neither_ of them does ...
o Is provide privacy.

Anyone who thinks otherwise...
o Needs to contend with the facts

I agree with you that it's MARKETING's job to create the _illusion_ of
privacy - and I don't disagree that creating the illusion of privacy is
what Apple does extremely well.

But the facts clearly show that this is indeed, an illusion.
o The privacy of both Android & Apple are about the same.

I realize you (and most people reading this) don't believe that
o But what YOU don't realize is that Apple cherry picks what to advertise

For example, on Android, you can wipe out the Google account.
o On iOS - you can't.

On Android, for example, there is no advertiser ID if you don't want it
o On iOS - it's always there

On Android - your free APKs are not tagged to your user id
o On iOS - they are

On Android - you can use the official sanctioned Tor browser
o It doesn't even exist on iOS

These are facts Barry.
o Those facts go on and on and on and on and on and on and on, Barry.

Those who _think_ Apple is somehow (magically?) more private, Barry
o Are immune to these obvious and well known facts.

All they see are the facts that Apple MARKETING cherry picks
o But Apple doesn't mention the myriad cases where they're _not_ private.

An _adult_ brain is needed to sift through what Apple marketing "says"
o And what Apple marketing doesn't say (because they cherry pick)
Arlen G. Holder
2019-08-03 04:31:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arlen G. Holder
For example, on Android, you can wipe out the Google account.
o On iOS - you can't.
Oops. Before childish apologists jump on this faux pas, I had meant...

For example, on Android, you can wipe out the Google account.
o On iOS, you can't wipe out the _Apple_ account.

In fact, you can _easily_ set up an Android phone and _never_ once use any
Google account whatsoever. I do it all the time, Barry.

There are so many privacy holes in Apple products that don't exist in the
other products (and vice versa) that the only intelligent adult analysis is
that they're all not private.

Anyone who thinks Apple products are somehow (magically?) more private
o Is simply falling for the Apple marketing of the _illusion_ of privacy.

This siri situation is just one of so many examples that it's not funny.
Alan Baker
2019-08-03 17:16:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arlen G. Holder
Post by Arlen G. Holder
For example, on Android, you can wipe out the Google account.
o On iOS - you can't.
Oops. Before childish apologists jump on this faux pas, I had meant...
For example, on Android, you can wipe out the Google account.
o On iOS, you can't wipe out the _Apple_ account.
In fact, you can _easily_ set up an Android phone and _never_ once use any
Google account whatsoever. I do it all the time, Barry.
The real question is:

So what?

Create an AppleID just for that phone. Never put any personal
information in it.
Post by Arlen G. Holder
There are so many privacy holes in Apple products that don't exist in the
other products (and vice versa) that the only intelligent adult analysis is
that they're all not private.
Anyone who thinks Apple products are somehow (magically?) more private
o Is simply falling for the Apple marketing of the _illusion_ of privacy.
This siri situation is just one of so many examples that it's not funny.
nospam
2019-08-03 04:35:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arlen G. Holder
I'm very (very) well educated & well informed
definitely not.
Arlen G. Holder
2019-08-03 04:44:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by Arlen G. Holder
I'm very (very) well educated & well informed
definitely not.
Hi nospam,

You brazenly claim anything you like - sans a shred of supporting evidence
o Where are your independent cites backing up your brazen claims, nospam?

The fact is that never once have you been able to provide an independent
reliable cite showing my stated facts to be material wrong.

Not even once.

I realize you'll claim that you did - to which I will simply respond with
the 3-word adult response of asking you to provide that independent
respected cite that proves your claim (which, you know, you _never_ do).

All you have to do to prove your point is name a single reliable cite:
o Name just one

It's what an adult would do when they state the claims you make.
--
(1) Since I'm human and since Usenet is a casual medium, out of thousands of
posts over the decades, I must have made a factual material mistake at least
once, but since I don't easily form imaginary belief systems, my statements of
material facts are _based_ on well known easily observed facts. If, as is
sometimes necessary, the facts change over time, then I simply adjust my
belief system to fit the facts. If I'm wrong I will easily admit I'm wrong,
and I will _modify_ my belief system accordingly (it's what distuingihes
adults from children). I'm never threatened by facts like those who form
imaginary belief systems are. The fact is that nobody can find any material
fact I've ever stated on Usenet that was wrong (trust me, they've tried),
which you have to admit is pretty incredible to earn nearly 100% stellar
credibility on Usenet over decades and many thousands of posts.
nospam
2019-08-03 05:32:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arlen G. Holder
The fact is that never once have you been able to provide an independent
reliable cite showing my stated facts to be material wrong.
false. i've done it many, many times. too many to count.
Arlen G. Holder
2019-08-03 14:33:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by Arlen G. Holder
The fact is that never once have you been able to provide an independent
reliable cite showing my stated facts to be material wrong.
false. i've done it many, many times. too many to count.
Hi nospam,

The saddest realization is that you're the _smartest_ of the apologists.

And yet, you consistently make brazen claims just like flat earthers do.
o You can't back up your claim with a _single_ reliable cite - not one.

If your claim wasn't imaginary - you could pass the simplest of fact tests.
o Name just one

Back on topic - the fact is this sordid Siri situation is simply yet
another of many facts that, together, prove beyond any reasonable doubt,
that Apple products are no more private than other similar products.

What's different is the brilliant marketing of the _illusion_ of privacy.
nospam
2019-08-03 15:04:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arlen G. Holder
Post by nospam
Post by Arlen G. Holder
The fact is that never once have you been able to provide an independent
reliable cite showing my stated facts to be material wrong.
false. i've done it many, many times. too many to count.
And yet, you consistently make brazen claims just like flat earthers do.
o You can't back up your claim with a _single_ reliable cite - not one.
as i said
Post by Arlen G. Holder
Post by nospam
false. i've done it many, many times. too many to count.
and i'll add that others have as well, also many times.

whenever you're caught bullshitting, you go off on a rant.
~BD~
2019-08-03 04:45:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by Arlen G. Holder
I'm very (very) well educated & well informed
definitely not.
I'm looking forward to reading your answers to the questions posed by
'Diesel' (Dustin Cook)

His name is even stamped on the early version of this product!

Loading Image...
--
David B.
Devon
nospam
2019-08-03 05:32:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by ~BD~
Post by nospam
Post by Arlen G. Holder
I'm very (very) well educated & well informed
definitely not.
I'm looking forward to reading your answers to the questions posed by
'Diesel' (Dustin Cook)
stop hijacking threads.

better yet, stop participating in them.
~BD~
2019-08-03 05:40:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by ~BD~
Post by nospam
Post by Arlen G. Holder
I'm very (very) well educated & well informed
definitely not.
I'm looking forward to reading your answers to the questions posed by
'Diesel' (Dustin Cook)
stop hijacking threads.
OK :-)
Post by nospam
better yet, stop participating in them.
Young Dustin Cook has got you on the ropes, 'nospam'. He a clever young
man with many skills.
--
David B.
Devon
nospam
2019-08-03 11:21:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by ~BD~
Post by nospam
Post by ~BD~
Post by nospam
Post by Arlen G. Holder
I'm very (very) well educated & well informed
definitely not.
I'm looking forward to reading your answers to the questions posed by
'Diesel' (Dustin Cook)
stop hijacking threads.
OK :-)
Post by nospam
better yet, stop participating in them.
Young Dustin Cook has got you on the ropes, 'nospam'.
he does not.
Post by ~BD~
He a clever young
man with many skills.
not that many, and none of which are apple related.
Lewis
2019-08-03 16:18:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by Arlen G. Holder
I'm very (very) well educated & well informed
definitely not.
He's got a bigly education and has all the best words!
--
These budget numbers are not just estimates, these are the actual
results for the fiscal year that ended February the 30th. - GWB
Arlen G. Holder
2019-07-28 16:01:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
<https://techcrunch.com/2015/09/11/apple-addresses-privacy-questions-about-hey-siri-and-live-photo-features/>
Being able to say the phrase at any time to activate Siri is convenient,
but raises some questions about what Apple means by 'listening' and
whether any of that stuff is recorded.
Hey Siri is an optional feature that is enabled by an opt-in step in iOS
9's setup. You can choose never to enable it. If you do enable it,
nothing is ever recorded in any way before the feature is triggered.
"In no case is the device recording what the user says or sending that
information to Apple before the feature is triggered," says Apple.
Instead, audio from the microphone is continuously compared against the
model, or pattern, of your personal way of saying 'Hey Siri' that you
recorded during setup of the feature. Hey Siri requires a match to both
the 'general' Hey Siri model (how your iPhone thinks the words sound)
and the 'personalized' model of how you say it. This is to prevent other
people's voices from triggering your phone's Hey Siri feature by
accident.
Until that match happens, no audio is ever sent off of your iPhone. All
of that listening and processing happens locally.
"The 'listening' audio, which will be continuously overwritten, will be
used to improve Siri's response time in instances where the user
activates Siri," says Apple. The keyword there being 'activates Siri.'
Until you activate it, the patterns are matched locally, and the buffer
of sound being monitored (from what I understand, just a few seconds) is
being erased, un-sent and un-used -- and unable to be retrieved at any
point in the future.
Of course, as has always been the case with Siri, once a match is made
and a Siri command is sent off to Apple, it's associated with your
device using a random identifier, not your Apple ID or another
personalized piece of info. That information is then 'approved' for use
in improving the service, because you've made an explicit choice to ask
Apple's remote servers to answer a query.
"If a user chooses to turn off Siri, Apple will delete the User Data
associated with the user's Siri identifier, and the learning process
will start all over again," says Apple.
Meanwhile, at Amazon and others...
<https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-10/is-anyone-listening-to-you-on-alexa-a-global-team-reviews-audio>
Amazon Workers Are Listening to What You Tell Alexa
A screenshot reviewed by Bloomberg shows that the recordings sent to the
Alexa reviewers don't provide a user's full name and address but are
associated with an account number, as well as the user's first name and
the device's serial number.
Occasionally the listeners pick up things Echo owners likely would
rather stay private: a woman singing badly off key in the shower, say,
or a child screaming for help. The teams use internal chat rooms to
share files when they need help parsing a muddled word--or come across
an amusing recording.
<https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-6910791/Alexa-listening-conversations.html>
Alexa IS listening to your conversations: Web giant ADMITS clips are
analysed by Amazon workers - including your most intimate moments
<https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-6956531/Amazon-employees-listening-Alexa-recordings-customers-live.html>
Amazon employees listening to your Alexa recordings can also easily find
customers' home addresses, report claims
What's interesting is that Jolly Roger just _proved_ that he actually
realizes that Apple is no different than, oh, he said "Amazon", when it
comes to privacy.

And he's right.

A. Apple is the same on privacy as everyone else (which is just a fact)
B. Yet, Apple brilliantly advertises that they're _different_ on privacy.
C. Worse, Apologists _believe_ this highly advertised (but false) claim
D. Then, when mere facts come out saying Apple is the same as everyone else
E. Amazingly, Apologists blame everyone but Apple for Apple being the same!

A classic case of the imaginary privacy advertised by Apple ensued today...
o Apple Addresses Privacy Questions About 'Hey Siri'
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/ZN_5IjhNFSM/1x6tTFmxEgAJ>

Based on reliable facts showing Apple is no more private than anyone else:
o Workers hear drug deals, medical details and people having sex
<https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jul/26/apple-contractors-regularly-hear-confidential-details-on-siri-recordings>

This situation is absolutely canonically CLASSIC for how the dynamic works!
1. Apple spends millions advertising (what is, in fact imaginary) privacy
2. Apple Apologists _believe_ (hook line & sinker) in that imaginary belief
3. Facts show privacy on Apple products is no different than anywhere else
4. Not only do the Apologists instantly (brazenly in fact) deny these facts
5. The Apologists always blame everyone but Apple for Apple's flaws!

This situation has been repeated for decades, and, as such, is classic!
First - Apple woos susceptible people with admittedly brilliant MARKETING!
o What is the most brilliant marketing move Apple ever made?
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/wW-fu0jsvAU/s6gu-hj2BwAJ>

Then, the truth comes out that Apple is no more private than anyone else
o Apple is paying contractors to personally listen to millions of private
recorded Siri conversations every day which is NOT explicitly disclosed in
Apple's privacy pollicy
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/ia3wMAwiD74>

*Facts instantly _DESTROY_ the apologists' imaginary belief system!*

Such that the Apologists react using the _same_ half-dozen traits
o What are the common well-verified psychological traits of the Apple
Apologists on this newsgroup?
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/18ARDsEOPzM/veU8FwAjBQAJ>

Where the canonical response by apologists is to blame everyone but Apple!
o Apple Addresses Privacy Questions About 'Hey Siri'
<https://misc.phone.mobile.iphone.narkive.com/xqZp1CKP/apple-addresses-privacy-questions-about-hey-siri>

Notice the pattern?

Essentially, Apple sold privacy to the apologists, but the fact is that
Apple is no more private than anyone else is - and when the apologists find
that out - they BLAME EVERYONE BUT APPLE for Apple being just like
everyone!
o As expected, Apple beginning to play up the imaginary privacy of iPhones
(since they can't compete on performance)
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/EfMlrgxWkvQ/d6lR8F-kBAAJ>

Mere facts instantly destroy Apologists's imaginary belief systems:
o What is the factual truth about PRIVACY differences or similarities
between the Android & iOS mobile phone ecosystems?
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/MiZixhidmOs/ATC1S3s4FQAJ>

In summary, it's elucidating to realize this is a classic documentation of
A. Apple is the same on privacy as everyone else (which is just a fact)
B. Yet, Apple brilliantly advertises that they're _different_ on privacy.
C. Worse, Apologists _believe_ this highly advertised (but false) claim
D. Then, when mere facts come out saying Apple is the same as everyone else
E. Amazingly, Apologists blame everyone but Apple for Apple being the same!

Do you see how hilariously comic this canonical interaction proves to be?
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